I’m Not Trying To Start Yet Another Caliber War, But …

BY Herschel Smith
1 month, 2 weeks ago

I hate to do this, and I don’t want to be charged with starting yet another caliber war only to be told to stop in the comments.  Really, I’m not warring on anything – I’m just observing.  You can make your observations without insulting the author of the post or the other commenters.

First up there is this incident.

Then there is this incident.

So count them.  Eleven rounds for the first incident to stop the threat.  Seven rounds in the second incident to stop the threat.

The upshot is that if you carry a 9mm pistol, your magazine can hold a lot of more rounds than, say, a magazine full of .45 ACP, due to the cartridge size.

But the downside is that you’re more likely to need them.  I usually carry .45 ACP.  I think that’s probably enough.  In a circumstance like this one, if there was a good way to conceal it (say, a 4″ barrel), I’d almost rather have a .44 magnum wheel gun.

Like I said, I’m not trying to start another caliber war.  But I didn’t make up the events in the videos.


Comments

  1. On September 10, 2020 at 12:10 am, George 1 said:

    The proponents of the 9mm will quote various tests and shooting data that , they say, shows that the 9mm is just as effective as the .40 cal or .45 cal. Many cite the FBI ballistics gel tests where the 9mm in many loads passes the FBI requirements for penetration and expansion, in the gel.

    What the ballistic gel will not tell you is how the round will perform in dense muscle or bone. Many of the tacti-cool guys will laugh at you if you say you think the .40 cal or 45 cal are better rounds than 9mm. But, you have incidents like these.

    Paul Harrell has a video dealing with the Law Enforcement Agencies switching to the 9mm from the .40 cal. He does his famous “meat target test.” It is an interesting watch. His conclusion was that the agencies would probably be better off training their officers better and not switching calibers.

  2. On September 10, 2020 at 12:48 am, Georgiaboy61 said:

    Years ago, I remember reading about an American GI, a soldier who fought in Europe against the Germans after the D-Day Invasion of Normandy on 6th June, 1944. This man recounted how he and his mirror image, both popped up from cover about twenty feet apart at precisely the same time, each unaware of the other, intending to train his weapon on the surrounding fire-fight.

    Shocked and surprised, each man turned to fire at the other roughly simultaneously, the German slightly ahead on the time-action curve. Armed with a MP38/40 submachine gun in 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger), the German scored five hits on the American, at various locations on his body (including the torso). The American, bringing his Thompson .45-caliber ACP submachine gun to bear, got off a hurried burst as well. He only scored one hit, a center-mass torso shot, but it was enough to kill the German outright.

    The American, firing .45 ACP 230-grain Ball/FMJ, walked away from the fight to survive the war and live a long life. The German, firing 9mm Luger, scored multiple hits which failed to disable -let alone kill – his opponent, paid with his life.

    Modern readers will often retort that modern ammunition designs change the calculus considerably, and they are not incorrect – but when firing FMJ, as the military does, the .45-caliber 230-grain “fat boy” puts ’em down for good. Draw your own conclusions.

    On paper, the 9×19/9mm Parabellum seems potent-enough, possessing high muzzle velocity and adequate bullet (projectile) mass, but in the real world, 9mm slugs often zip through their intended targets, depositing only some of their energy there. Expanding/HP designs perform better, but the round continues to be dogged by a mixed reputation as a combat/LE cartridge, performing very well under some circumstances, but poorly in others.

    The 230-grain .45-caliber (45 ACP) cartridge, however, hits a proverbial home-run, by combining a large cross-section, relatively modest muzzle velocity and a heavy, bone-breaking bullet weighing twice as much as the typical 115-grain slug found in the 9mm Luger. The cartridge was intended from its inception as a man-stopper, and it delivered – in spades.

    In fact, the circumstances leading to its adoption mirror “caliber wars” and debates of today.

    During the Spanish-American War of 1898 and the subsequent Philippine Insurrection (1899-1902; intermittent until 1913), standard-issue handguns of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps proved inadequate to halt determined Islamic Moro tribesmen waging sudden sword attacks at close quarters from out of the jungle. These attackers, drugged, bound tightly with cloth strips to tie off blood flow, and filled with fanatical zeal, were cutting down multiple U.S. personnel before being brought down. The then-issued Colt New Army Model 1892 in .38-caliber Long – simply was not getting the job done. It was not potent-enough.

    The .45-caliber Model 1911 Automatic semi-automatic handgun became the standard issue side-arm of the American soldier and built its legend, one 230-grain hardball round at a time.

    A final anecdote illustrates the high regard in which the .45 ACP cartridge was held, not just by Americans, but other nations who used it over the years. During the dark early days of the Second World War, when Britain stood alone against Hitler and Nazi Germany, one of Prime Minister Churchill’s pet projects soon became the British Commandos.

    Intended as elite raiders, these men were the fittest, most-highly-trained and best-armed soldiers in the British military. It took the personal request of the Prime Minister with the U.S. on their behalf, but the some of the Commandos were equipped with the American Thompson .45-caliber submachine gun. The U.S. wanted as much of its production for its own uses as possible, but Churchill was able to pry some of the precious weapons away from the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps, with Franklin Roosevelt’s help.

    The Thompson proved to be an ideal weapon for the commandos, their operations, and their tactics. So much so that when the British STEN submachine gun in 9mm Parabellum began appearing in sufficient numbers to equip the various commando units, many of these elite troops refused to turn in their “Tommy Guns,” so much had they come to trust them in combat.

    It is often instructive to look at the very best troops, the ones good-enough to choose how they’ll be armed on their missions, to see what they choose and why. The evident preference of the commando raiders for an American designed SMG when a British alternative was available, speaks volumes about the effectiveness of the American weapon and its cartridge.

  3. On September 10, 2020 at 1:15 am, Bradley Suhr said:

    I learned to shoot 1911’s as a kid. I favor 45 ACP and 10mm. Haven’t found a good reason to change that. I am not a proponent of capacity in a handgun. Given that handguns sit near the bottom of the power spectrum, I believe handgun caliber and stopping power arguments to be a pointless exercise in hair-splitting.

    Handgunning is more art than science. Fit and feel of the handgun to the shooter is more important than caliber and raw stopping power, as these factors strongly influence the shooter’s ability to place shots rapidly and accurately. Logistical considerations such as cost and availability of ammo for training also deserve to be prioritized above caliber and stopping power (consider that 9mm ammo costs about half as much as 45 ACP).

    In my lifetime, I have taught a number of people to shoot handguns and helped (successfully) prepare some of them for qualification courses. When it comes to handgun selection, my advice has always been the same:

    1. The starting point is a handgun of reasonable quality and high reliability.
    2. Next, choose something that “feels right” in your hand and points naturally for you.
    3. If at all possible, seek out the opportunity to shoot examples of handgun models you are considering and in the chamberings you are considering.
    4. Choose the handgun that you shoot best, in the most powerful chambering that you shoot well, and PICK THE RIGHT BULLET FOR SERIOUS PURPOSES.

    YES, my personal preference is for handgun cartridges that start with a 4. I have never found them objectionable to shoot. I have, however, encountered quite a few people who DO find them objectionable to shoot and are honest enough with themselves to admit it. Such individuals often gravitate toward a 9mm and rightly place emphasis on weapon handling over ballistic minutiae.

  4. On September 10, 2020 at 1:20 am, Bradley Suhr said:

    Handgun caliber, chambering, and stopping power arguments are good for selling articles in gun rags. Outside of that, such arguments are of limited utility.

  5. On September 10, 2020 at 1:54 am, BAP45 said:

    I think you could argue (using these 2 vidoes) that while the .45 is giving about a 37% (11 shots vs 9) increase in power the 9mm is giving double the capacity.
    Horses for courses I suppose

  6. On September 10, 2020 at 1:55 am, Trope said:

    As an older woman who doesn’t have the strength I once did, firing a .45 caliber handgun is an impossibility. In my younger years it was difficult to handle a .45 as the grips weren’t made for smaller hands. Then and now, I’d rather have a 9mm I can handle than a .45 I can’t.

    When men tried to argue the point I asked how badly they wanted to be right and if they’d like to be shot by a 9mm. I never had any takers.

    I suspect these incidents are not typical.

  7. On September 10, 2020 at 4:31 am, Duke Norfolk said:

    BAP45 – I think you’re misunderstanding this a bit. They’re both firing 9mm, I believe; that being the standard issue these days, and certainly not .45 ACP.

    Of course it would be ideal to be able to see both these scenarios run with .45, but alas…

  8. On September 10, 2020 at 5:23 am, Rocketguy said:

    Without an apples to apples comparison with 45 in reasonably similar scenarios, my takeaway would be: pistol stopping power sucks; keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.

  9. On September 10, 2020 at 5:30 am, Daniel S. said:

    It doesn’t matter what caliber weapon you have, if you erratically shoot in an uncontrolled manner as these officers did, it will take that many rounds to stop an enemy combatant. They obviously have little to no range time. Three rounds is all it should take. Two to the chest, one to the head. Over and over and over and over again until it becomes a part of who you are, like breathing.

  10. On September 10, 2020 at 6:51 am, Mark Matis said:

    I suspect that if you put the muzzle of your gun against their temple, you only need ONE shot.

  11. On September 10, 2020 at 6:54 am, Jack said:

    Things to ponder beyond caliber…

    * The brain can continue to function and control muscles for 45 seconds with no blood flow

    * Thus, attackers – especially under the influence of drugs – can take multiple (10+) rounds of 45 to center mass and continue their attack

    * Thus the “mozambique” technique as partly described by @Daniel S. The correct technique is two rapid shots to center mass (because it’s easiest to hit and doesn’t move much compared to extremities) which should hopefully cause the bad guy to slow down enough for one *aimed* shot to the brain – between the eyes (not the head – a shot in the mouth will just piss off the bad guy). The goal here is to destroy the brain to stop the bad guy from doing what he’s doing. [Aside: I’ve run into people with the mozambique as a training scar and they couldn’t adapt to a different situation]

    * What’s the goal in shooting the bad guy? A) Attitude adjustment (stopping their bad behavior) or B) death? Most cops – even if they don’t realize it, opt for A. Most cops – and most people – don’t want to kill they guy, they just want him to stop him from doing the bad stuff that he’s doing.

    * Seven rounds of 45 in a 1911 may work wonders for one bad guy. What happens in the multiple attacker scenario (think the Seattle event Herschel linked to a few days ago); If you insist on 45, consider a double-stack pistol.

    * Caliber comparisons need to go beyond so-called stopping power. Shooting ability, weight and effect on carrying ability, reloads, availability, etc. What works for a big man like Herschel may be less optimal for a medium sized man like me, or a small woman. I’ve instructed men and women with small hands, some of whom could not get a good grip on a full-sized 45.

    * And, most importantly, we need to consider the situation. Cops are in a different situation than most of the rest of us. As with the videos Herschel provided, cops are paid to *engage* with the bad guy. For the rest of us, our best course of action is often to disengage and retreat (as with the Seattle event). And note in both videos the cops actually retreated before shooting.

    * Another part of the situation to consider: Is the attacker armored. Herschel’s son was much more likely to encounter a human attacker wearing armor than me – or the cops. Unless I’m hiking in the woods, where my attacker is more likely to be a bear with a thick skull and thick skin and fat protecting its vital organs. What is appropriate for encounters in downtown may be different than what’s appropriate for encounters in the woods.

    What applies to fixing your car also applies to self defense: Buy once, cry once, but, whatever you do, chose and use the right tool for the job.

  12. On September 10, 2020 at 7:17 am, Mark Matis said:

    How about a 10 mm double stack 1911?

  13. On September 10, 2020 at 7:27 am, Name (required) said:

    I have a double stack .45. Ten round magazines, and fourteen round magazines that are a little less concealable. If your hands are big enough, it’s a good way to go.

  14. On September 10, 2020 at 7:29 am, Frank Clarke said:

    Not to disparage any other caliber, but…

    I’m the father of three beautiful women and the husband of another. When I choose a firearm, I choose something that all of us can operate. The twins, when they were in college, were 5-foot-two, eyes-of-blue, a hundred and ten pounds soaking wet, and found a 1911 hard to grip and fire, thus we chose something that fit their petite hands and frame. Mom is similarly size-deficient.

    Better a 9mm we all can use than a .45ACP that’s just for me.

    Just sayin’…

  15. On September 10, 2020 at 8:07 am, BOB in NC said:

    No question that a .45 is a man stopper; so is a revolver-fired .357. But I’ll go with capacity every time.
    In 2012 when I lived and worked in Charlotte, NC, there was an outbreak of violence where groups of 10 or more, um… “youths” as the media likes to call them … would swarm people at gas stations (or even stop lights in certain areas of the city) and attack whatever unfortunate soul they could find. I worked in relatively bad part of Charlotte (out by the airport, near the WalMart on Wilkinson Blvd for those familiar with it) so I decided to carry my Beretta 9mm, 15 rd. mag loaded with hollow points, a spare mag, plus a pistol grip 12 GA I kept in the Jeep, for good measure.

  16. On September 10, 2020 at 8:43 am, Thomas Madere said:

    People are generally hard to kill unless you hit the heart or brain. If you can do that caliber doesn’t much matter.

  17. On September 10, 2020 at 8:44 am, George said:

    Bullet placement is the key. Most police officers are not very good shots and that is on the range with no stress. Pointing the pistol and jerking the trigger are not conducive to good shot placement.
    But that is the world that police officers work in. It takes remarkable nerves to react quickly and accurately when the boogie bear is charging you.
    I had 30 years on the job before retirement. I carried a .357 magnum for most of those years because that is what the agency I worked for issued and required us to carry. When we transitioned to auto pistols we carried .40 S&Ws.
    Both of those calibers had good results in shootings.

  18. On September 10, 2020 at 8:49 am, Bram said:

    Unless it’s the camera angle, the cop has a cant to his pistol. I also couldn’t tell where he was hitting the idiot with the first few shot – center mass or winged him? Once the cop has no choice but to go for a head-shot, things end very quickly.

    Anyone know what kind of ammo Athens-Clarke County Police use?

  19. On September 10, 2020 at 9:13 am, Jon said:

    Just goes to show,

    Handguns poke holes in people

    Rifles poke holes through people

    Shotguns with the right load and range will take a chunk of someone and put it on the wall

    The Great Clint Smith

  20. On September 10, 2020 at 9:19 am, Ned2 said:

    @Frank Clarke
    “Better a 9mm we all can use than a .45ACP that’s just for me.”

    Exactly. We have guns all over the house, and need firearms that everyone is familiar with and can operate easily.

    @ George
    “Bullet placement is the key”

    Yup, caliber means nothing if you can’t hit anything with it.

    The above videos show typical (in my experience) police shooting skills. They don’t get to spend enough time at the range due to budgetary restraints, and qualify with poor hit on target ratios.
    If they would simply train them to hit what they’re aiming at.

  21. On September 10, 2020 at 9:30 am, 41mag said:

    Forget the caliber arguments.

    Send the cops to FRONTSIGHT for real training.

  22. On September 10, 2020 at 9:33 am, Levi Garrett said:

    For those looking for a high(er) capacity .45, take a look at the Springfield XD 45. I had one, shot well with it, and generally liked it. It was the 4″ service model and used double stack 13-round magazines. It is a fairly concealable package, considering you are carrying 14 rounds of .45 ACP (13+1). I just checked Springfield’s website, and it seems they no longer make that gun with 13-round magazines. It seems they only offer a “Low Capacity” version with 10-round mags. I imagine you might be able to still use the 13 rounders in this new gun, but I’m not sure.

    On another note, for those carrying 9mm, consider keeping a couple high capacity magazines within reach. Glock makes several models (including a 33-rounder), and ETS makes 30-rounders for Smith and Wesson M&P Pistols and at least one other make/model. While they might not be what you keep in the gun when carrying (because they stick out the bottom of the magazine well considerably), but they might be valuable if you expend your first magazine and need more ammo when facing a whole bunch of hostiles.

  23. On September 10, 2020 at 9:57 am, WarEagle82 said:

    I wouldn’t want to base any conclusions off a handful of anecdotal incidents. These two videos probably aren’t representative of all shootings. And I could easily add one or two more videos.

    The fact is, only about 22% of single handgun wounds are fatal. And it takes 3 to 5 minutes for someone to bleed out even from multiple wounds. There is the old joke about what someone does 5 seconds after they are shot. They do the same thing they were doing before they were shot.

    But there are numerous examples of a single handgun wound ending an attack. You shoot until the threat is stopped whether that is bringing down the assailant or causing him to flee.

    The only wounds that are going to immediately stop a threat are CNS hits to the head or spine. You might get lucky and break a hip bone or leg bone. But that is hard to do on purpose.

  24. On September 10, 2020 at 10:39 am, NOG said:

    45 is fine for all you young bucks. But what happens when A) you get old and B) you get disabled and weak? When I worked Reserve SO I carried a 6in Ruger Security Six with 140gr hot loads. Then I carried a Glock 23 CCW for many years. Then old age and heart disease hit. Downgraded to a Glock19 and a Ruger LC9. Now problems again. Did not like the Smith or Ruger 380 offerings much. Just could not hit what I wanted. On a lark I shot the range rental Bersa Thunder 380. Wow. I could make any hit I wanted without effort. Bought one and have not looked back. Being a Smith, Ruger and Glock kind of guy my buds could not believe it. But easy to shoot. Easy to make hits I just practice CNS shots and hope for the best. “THAT DAY” comes sooner or later, if you are lucky. Best way is to avoid being there. Next is practice. Figure someday if I make it that long a .22 is in the cards. I wish I had a Bersa .22 Mag. Same note I had to give up the Winnie 1300. Now looking for a 410. Better than a broomstick.

  25. On September 10, 2020 at 10:56 am, Bad_Brad said:

    Shot placement trumps caliber size all day long. It’s hard to be accurate when your running away. I blame the taser.

  26. On September 10, 2020 at 11:15 am, Red Forman said:

    Yep, Brad is dead on. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with any other caliber. A couple of thoughts that were not mentioned:

    1. How many hits in each shooting were to a vital area? Anyone is a shootout is going to be extremely agitated and not able to get the best shot placement. (That’s one of the reasons that listening for/and feeling trigger reset is such a bogus teaching point.)
    2. How many were follow-up hits in quick succession.
    3. How many rounds is ever enough? I have never heard of anyone surviving a gunfight and complaining that they had too many rounds in their mags.
    4. Bravo to Trope: I use the same argument on people. No takers so far for the 9mm.
    5. I’ll stick with the 9 and hopefully, my practice will overcome my excited state and allow for good hits.

  27. On September 10, 2020 at 11:22 am, Red Forman said:

    One other thought: I own a Springfield .45 and it is a superb pistol. It becomes ever superber with a Powder River drop-in trigger with gives about a 3.5 pound pull, it’s very well balanced, and the ergonomics allow good control of recoil – not unlike that of a 9mm. Just my $0.02.

  28. On September 10, 2020 at 11:33 am, Bad_Brad said:

    @Red Forman
    Interesting statistics that the FBI has on Carry Permit Holder vs LE in gun fights and average rounds spent. The CCW crowd is at an average of 3, and if memory serves me correct LE was at 12 rounds. It’s hard to be proficient when you only shout 45 rounds every 3 months.
    My EDC is a G19. Great gun. The only Glock I own. I own a lot of 1911’s. And I actually find the recoil on the 1911’s a lot more controllable and a lot faster to reacquire the site pic. But I’m pretty active at work. No need to sweat all over or beat up a 1911.

  29. On September 10, 2020 at 11:50 am, Scott in Phx said:

    To be fair it looks like both these guys were shooting while moving (backing up?).

    Why not just drop to one knee and get your shot(s) on target?

    Also, in the 2nd instance, he’s alone, why didn’t he stay nearer his vehicle so he could use it for protection?

    ps: I’m highly critical of the police tendency to fix every problem with blam! blam! blam! but if the guy has a knife (or other weapon, perhaps even without if he is ignoring commands to stop) I have no problem with the officer shooting.

  30. On September 10, 2020 at 12:35 pm, TheOtherGeorge said:

    So when and why did police departments stop putting 12 gauge shotguns in cruisers? The traditional “man stopper” load was always assumed to be double ought buck, but Federal’s 12 gauge #1 buck 15 pellet load is said to be better.

  31. On September 10, 2020 at 4:19 pm, 41mag said:

    Civilians will be facing multiple concurrent threats if the satanists in bLM keep their kinetic activities going. Spicey times are here. Larger capacity is more benefitting in our regards than caliber size. The satanists aren’t doing their work solo.

  32. On September 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm, Matt said:

    Every commonly carried handgun round has a documented history of the one shot stop and the multiple failure. None of us can say what the next confrontation is going to look like and how it’s going to play out.

    Like .41mag points out, the odds of facing a concurrent multiple threat is increasing. Based upon that, I would want to be in a position to carry more rounds.

    There isn’t a “right” answer per se. Carry in the platform what you are confident in. And train with it.

  33. On September 10, 2020 at 6:37 pm, John said:

    I’ve never found the recoil of the .45 ACP to be objectionable. That said, I remember that based on FBI statistics, the Federal .357 125 gr. hollow point load to have the best “one shot stops” statistics by a wide margin.

    I’m happy with either.

    Given the choice, a 12 gauge would be far superior, but hard to carry on your hip…

  34. On September 10, 2020 at 7:55 pm, xtphreak said:

    @Jack
    “…* What’s the goal in shooting the bad guy? A) Attitude adjustment (stopping their bad behavior) or B) death? Most cops – even if they don’t realize it, opt for A. Most cops – and most people – don’t want to kill they guy, they just want him to stop him from doing the bad stuff that he’s doing. …”

    Just noticed that A) is exactly what CCW carriers are taught to say after a defensive shoot, i.e.; I was trying to stop the threat, not I was trying to kill him.

    Just sayin’

  35. On September 11, 2020 at 9:08 am, John Taylor said:

    Two words: Greg Ellifritz. (Do your homework.)

    Shoot what you shoot well. Projectile and placement are all that matter.

  36. On September 11, 2020 at 9:34 am, Herschel Smith said:

    “Do your homework.”

    To whom are you speaking? Maybe you don’t understand how comment threads at this web site work.

    If you have an opinion, share it. Do homework for other readers, show they your evidence, let them comment back.

  37. On September 11, 2020 at 10:03 am, Daniel S. said:

    @Jack

    I agree with most of what you said about firing technique, other than not being able to adapt due to Mozambique scar. I believe your theory to be wrong in that they are unable to adapt because of the technique of how they fire a weapon. I believe the individuals you’ve encountered are unable to adapt due to training. People get so hung up on thinking it’s all about “putting rounds down range”, but it’s so much more than that when you are in a firefight/engaging enemy combatants. It’s a mindset as well. Where is your mind, your thoughts whatever. What is it your are trying to accomplish by engaging an enemy? Typically, this is to destroy your enemy before he destroys you. So the next question is how are you going to present yourself to this enemy combatant once you’ve decided to engage? What I’m getting at is it’s just as important to have the “aggressive mindset” as it is to “put rounds down range”. Training also should include researching and adopting an aggressive posture whenever engaging enemy forces, like the techniques involved. If you engage in a firefight in anything other than an aggressive posture, you have already lost that engagement. Engaging in and of itself is an aggressive act, and you do yourself no favors to withdraw while engaging. I’m sure you can explain the reasons why, and there are many. Examples being: you are always presenting yourself as something, and always a target, so what type of target do I want to present myself as, to how to best engage Combatants in CQB, etc. anything other than aggressive stance will hinder movement, defensibility of self and position, as well as not controlling the battle space with fire superiority.

    If a person is not willing to adopt this type of mindset before engaging enemy combatants, then that individual does not need to be engaging at all and find another job, because eventually they are going to hurt themselves or someone innocent.

  38. On September 11, 2020 at 8:11 pm, scuzzy said:

    Like Levi said:

    Springfield XD 45

    Like em lots. My fave. Although I’m carrying XD 9 everyday. That said – your handgun is a means to fight your way to your rifle.

    Let’s start another caliber war:

    I like my M4. For those that say it is a squirell gun – have you ever tried a spire point (jacketed with soft lead tip) on a deer? Massive damage.

  39. On September 13, 2020 at 4:28 pm, 45 guy said:

    Levi Garrett said: “For those looking for a high(er) capacity .45, take a look at the Springfield XD 45”

    I agree. This is the gun that brought me to the church of the 45.

    Also agree it is an OK carry gun.

  40. On September 13, 2020 at 5:27 pm, Dan Stubbs Sr said:

    I have had and carried .38 ,41, .357, 45 every one is a good round I found the 9nn not as good. One case in Palm Bch they shot the guy 14 times, and he lived. I really never trusted it since then…Polk County had two officer die because the 9 did not put the suspect down/. I don’t know why the round is not putting the suspect down after all it is a cuz of the 38 cal pistol round. Oh before Dirty Harry Movie I carried a 44 mag with 44 spec and 44 mag. mixed loading.

  41. On September 15, 2020 at 10:18 pm, brunop said:

    Captain: “I’m not trying to start a caliber war here…”.

    Comments: “Caliber War!!”

    To the people who are talking shot placement, you are winning.

    To the people deriding cop for shooting multiple times on a large, motivated, and drug-altered male? Bravely said from behind a keyboard. In order to keep from being crucified by DA and/or Court of Public Opinion, cop has to go through the Use of Force continuum – including using the taser which didn’t work. When the guy closed him, he was within one second of being hands on. Go ahead and try to make reliable COM hits from a Level 2 or 3 holster with a big crazy guy running at you in less than one second – knowing that even if you DID hit him in the heart or upper thoracic, he could still disarm and kill you. I very much doubt your ability to deliver. Cop got off the ‘X’ and prevailed.

    To the people using Brit Commandos in ’45 as evidence of .45 superiority? You also pointed out that new bullet design changed the “calculus”.

    To the guy who said humans are hard to kill with a handgun unless you hit them in the heart or in the head? True – but heart-shot criminals have killed police officers before (Platt / Mattix). If they’re going to stop before they kill you, you have two options:

    a) shoot them down – over and over, or
    b) shoot them in the brain

    All the people second guessing cops trying to de-escalate (policy) and proceed through a force continuum (morality and/or law) are Super Brave Keyboard Commandos. HTH.

  42. On September 16, 2020 at 10:29 am, Chuck Haggard said:

    This BS again?

    Seriously?

    You are stunningly out of touch with reality.

    Oh, and the Moros that always get dragged out by the .45 nerds? I’ve read the after actions from back then, they didn’t drop any faster to the .45s than they did to the .38s, it’s a fact.

    I’ll end with the words of a true expert in the field, the guy who quite literally wrote the book on the subject;

    “…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”
    Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

  43. On September 16, 2020 at 10:40 am, Herschel Smith said:

    @Chuck,

    You must be new here. Try to make your comments without insulting either the author or other commenters. If you do that, you’re welcome to post your opinions.

    Otherwise …

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