Open Carry Case In Texas

BY Herschel Smith
11 years, 4 months ago

Hays Free Press:

Walking along Goforth Road in Buda last week, two young adults carrying rifles on their backs created quite a stir. But the aftermath may be even more controversial.

Part of a group call Open Carry Texas, which, on the internet, seems to be associated with Opencarry.org, the two young adults were trying to make a statement, videotaping their interaction with police and posting it on YouTube.

What statement? That, by law, they are allowed to openly carry long guns in Texas.

The video interaction between Buda police and the weapons-carriers included lessons for all involved.

Last week, Buda Police Officer Alex Fernandez, who arrived on scene at 5:27 p.m. to investigate a call for suspicious circumstances, found himself the target of a nationwide movement to test Texas’s open carry laws. The individuals, one male, one female, videotaped the interaction with the officer and a Hays County Constable who arrived as backup.

Buda Police Chief Bo Kidd confirmed that he received a call from a concerned citizen that there were two people walking along Goforth Road with long guns strapped to their back. In addition, a call was made to the Hays County Sheriff’s 911 center about the guns.

As the scene opened up, as shown on the video, Fernandez approached the individuals and initiated the conversation by asking for their identification.

“You got a driver’s license or ID?” he asked.

The male said, “Um, I choose not to present that to you, officer.”

Fernandez replied, “Just to let you know, you have every right to do that, you also have one thing – let me tell you right now, if you fail to identify to a police officer, you can also get arrested for that, OK? Do you have a DL or ID?”

The Sheriff went on to comment that:

“I understand what they are promoting (2nd Amendment/Right to Bear Arms), but I think most reasonable people would disagree with the manner in which they are going about this,” Kidd said.

Kidd said he thought the manner in which the confrontation took place would have worked better as an educational experience if the protesters had simply let his office know they were going to be walking around with long guns.

One commenter wrote:

“The cop says his reasoning for detaining them is ‘suspicious activity.’ Brown v. Texas, 443 U.S. 47 (1979) ruled that suspicious activity does not satisfy the requirement to detain and demand ID. Instead the officer must suspect you of a specific crime, which he can articulate and substantiate with objective facts. The exercise of a right cannot be converted into reasonable suspicion of a crime.”

I don’t understand the notion that someone exercising a right must inform the local law enforcement.  Do street preachers tell the police that they’re going to be speaking?  Besides, the intent of this effort is to make it commonplace to carry long guns (and I would also observe that I have commented numerous times about the lack of open carry in Texas and South Carolina, saying that it is an artifact of Jim Crow laws).  It was, after all, commonplace to carry long guns in Colonial times.

As to whether the police had a right to demand identification, the officer was wrong and the commenter is right.  Texas has a stop and identify statute of sorts, but it’s very restrictive, and it must be a valid and defensible “Terry Stop” (i.e., where the person is suspected of having committed a crime) in order to constitutionally effect the detainment.

I think the police ought to get used to this happening and get their facts straight and protocol in order.  Open carry advocates have the law on their side, and this isn’t the last time this is going to happen.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks


Comments

  1. On July 22, 2013 at 2:01 pm, Mark Matis said:

    Do you STILL actually think that “Law Enforcement” gives a damn whether Mere Citizens “have the law on their side“? When have you EVER seen such a fact make any difference in the actions by “Law Enforcement”? And when have you ever seen “Law Enforcement” actually PAY for ignoring that fact? And judgements paid to the victims with taxpayer dollars do NOT count…

  2. On August 4, 2013 at 10:17 am, Julie Cochrane said:

    A long time ago, before Georgia lawmakers improved the language of our concealed carry law, my ex was harassed by a cop from a local elite squad because someone saw him “printing.” He showed his carry permit, and the cop made a lot of noise about how the permit did not legally allow him to carry concealed. The law was phrased awkwardly, and left room for a BS interpretation by idjits who wanted to BS. He told my then-husband that he was “lucky I don’t need to make a case today.”

    I, being a bit of a busybody, called the cop’s boss and told him what happened. I declined to file a complaint with internal affairs, said I didn’t want to get the cop in trouble, I just wanted his chief to better inform him on the law. I said that if the cop had arrested my partner it would have been a hassle and an embarrassment for all involved, and I wanted to head off a potential problem for somebody else and the department before it happened.

    The chief thanked me and made sure I had his name and number and said, “And you call me and let me know if your husband experiences any kind of retaliation over this.”

    I thanked him and said I would.

    He did run into the cop again, and the cop looked at him kind of funny, but didn’t say anything and let him alone. We also called and followed up, up the food chain, and found out where the bad interpretation was coming from–gun-hostile people in the state attorney general’s office. It wasn’t just one under-educated cop.

    So we shared the information around and a bunch of people, with varying degrees of politeness, let our legislators and the governor know what was happening. The governor asked the AG for an official letter stating his office’s official interpretation of the law. Then the legislature changed the wording of the law, and kept changing it periodically until the gun-hostile folks in the bureaucracy had zero wiggle room left.

    But the most important part of the story is–when the problem first happened, I was polite to the chief and the chief was reasonable and reeled his guy in.

    Not all cops are bad cops. The chief was a good cop, and the cop on the ground wasn’t a bad cop, he was just a victim of a bureaucracy getting sneaky with deliberate misinterpretation of a reasonably clear law.

    The chief had the sense to get his department out of the middle of the mess and let it be resolved above his pay grade.

  3. On August 4, 2013 at 10:28 am, Julie Cochrane said:

    Moral of the story: When a good citizen, doing something legal, has a problem with a cop, frequently the cop has been misinformed as to the law. Figure out where the misinformation is coming from, and deal with THEM.

  4. On August 4, 2013 at 10:45 am, Julie Cochrane said:

    On a “stop and identify,” frequently you can jump start the cop’s brain thinking back to his training if you ask him, “What’s your reasonable suspicion for stopping me?”

    “Okay, walking around with a long gun strapped to my back is *legal*. So what was your *reasonable* suspicion?” And if he gives you one, go ahead and show him your ID (if you don’t have ID on you, tell him your real name). The point isn’t to withhold your ID, it’s to get him to think clearly before stopping people.

    Sometimes there may really be reason to suspect you, even though you’ve done nothing wrong. You could legitimately fit a (good) description for something illegal going on near you that you don’t know about–bad luck happens.

    I saw a great link once to a video montage of people declining to cooperate with catch-all roadblocks, showing their interactions with the cops. There were really good examples of talking the cop through the realization that he doesn’t actually have reasonable suspicion to stop you.

  5. On August 4, 2013 at 11:14 am, Jim Harris said:

    Good points above. A lot of the bureaucratic stupidity that occurs is not ( … necessarily … ) because bureaucrats are stupid. They just feel forced to do certain things because of poor wording of law and regulation. They are caught with having to stick their neck out if they “use common sense” because they are vulnerable themselves if they do.

    Add to that the agendas of some above them — it can be lose-lose all the way around.

    (Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t challenge it though!! )

  6. On August 5, 2013 at 2:52 pm, Federale said:

    The advantage of given the locals a heads up is that when the Nellies call in, the dispatcher can calmly explain that it is legal. Therefore word gets around and fewer people call in and the behavior gets normalized.

  7. On August 5, 2013 at 3:10 pm, Herschel Smith said:

    Julie, my problem with what you’re saying is that unless I am suspected of committing a crime, the LEO has no right to my identity or other personal information. That’s why if I open carry in my home state of N.C. I will carry my CHP with me, but I will never present it voluntarily to a LEO. He has no right to it.

  8. On February 8, 2014 at 2:33 am, thenewislamicprophet said:

    http://comeandtakeitamerica.com/2013/11/29/conversation-with-buda-pd/comment-page-1/#comment-625

    Talk about “People That Don’t Fucking Get It”. Officer Alex Fernandez is merely a grunt-level operative. We don’t really expect him to understand the finer points in these situations. We do however expect PAID FUCKING MANAGEMENT to have a fucking clue.

    This “Kidd” dipshit obviously doesn’t have one. Who’s tax dollars are paying for this dumbass to be in charge of Fernandez, anyways? What dumbass is paying for this level of retarded incompetence? Oh yeah, that’s me. And you too. What a bunch of dumbasses we are.

    Here’s his retardation:

    “I understand what they are promoting (2nd Amendment/Right to Bear Arms), but I think most reasonable people would disagree with the manner in which they are going about this,” Kidd said.

    Kidd said he thought the manner in which the confrontation took place would have worked better as an educational experience if the protesters had simply let his office know they were going to be walking around with long guns.

    “most reasonable people” are too scared and too stupid to know or care about the degree to which the United States has devolved into a Police State, and thanks to dumbfucks like Sheriff Kidd, they just got a little more stupid. You see, he takes taxpayers money, the results of working people’s life’s labors, and he turns them into propaganda that keeps them retarded an unaware.

    Let’s take a “vote” on which Constitutional Rights people do and do not have, let’s do an opinion poll on how those Rights ought to be interpreted, and then let’s let the retarded Sheriff of Bumfuck County decide how those Rights ought to be asserted.

    I have a better idea, Kidd, you retarded motherfucker. How about instead of appealing to the unwashed masses in order to justify your, and your Police Officers failure to understand both the spirit and the letter of Texas Law and the US Constitution, and enforce both accordingly, how about instead you educate the public on what happens when two retards in Bumfuck County get uniforms, badges, guns and authority given to them by the American People, and the two retards decide that they OWN that power, and use it any way they please.

    Here’s the “educational experience” you referred to. We fire BOTH of your retarded asses. You, the dumbfuck retard that you are, interpreting law and the constitution based on popular opinion, and that dumbfuck retard Fernandez you have out in the field, enforcing your retarded will on the people that gave you that power. We’ll take it back, dumbass, and your retirement pension too, and you can spend the rest of your life working for the NSA, tape-recording politician’s phone conversations and then blackmailing them with the information in order to get them to vote for things like Socialized Medicine, er- I mean Affordable Health Care, and the Patriot Act, etc… ad infinitum…

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Leave a comment


You are currently reading "Open Carry Case In Texas", entry #11038 on The Captain's Journal.

This article is filed under the category(s) Guns and was published July 21st, 2013 by Herschel Smith.

If you're interested in what else the The Captain's Journal has to say, you might try thumbing through the archives and visiting the main index, or; perhaps you would like to learn more about TCJ.

26th MEU (10)
Abu Muqawama (12)
ACOG (2)
ACOGs (1)
Afghan National Army (36)
Afghan National Police (17)
Afghanistan (704)
Afghanistan SOFA (4)
Agriculture in COIN (3)
AGW (1)
Air Force (40)
Air Power (10)
al Qaeda (83)
Ali al-Sistani (1)
America (22)
Ammunition (285)
Animals (297)
Ansar al Sunna (15)
Anthropology (3)
Antonin Scalia (1)
AR-15s (379)
Arghandab River Valley (1)
Arlington Cemetery (2)
Army (87)
Assassinations (2)
Assault Weapon Ban (29)
Australian Army (7)
Azerbaijan (4)
Backpacking (3)
Badr Organization (8)
Baitullah Mehsud (21)
Basra (17)
BATFE (230)
Battle of Bari Alai (2)
Battle of Wanat (18)
Battle Space Weight (3)
Bin Laden (7)
Blogroll (3)
Blogs (24)
Body Armor (23)
Books (3)
Border War (18)
Brady Campaign (1)
Britain (38)
British Army (35)
Camping (5)
Canada (17)
Castle Doctrine (1)
Caucasus (6)
CENTCOM (7)
Center For a New American Security (8)
Charity (3)
China (16)
Christmas (16)
CIA (30)
Civilian National Security Force (3)
Col. Gian Gentile (9)
Combat Outposts (3)
Combat Video (2)
Concerned Citizens (6)
Constabulary Actions (3)
Coolness Factor (3)
COP Keating (4)
Corruption in COIN (4)
Council on Foreign Relations (1)
Counterinsurgency (218)
DADT (2)
David Rohde (1)
Defense Contractors (2)
Department of Defense (210)
Department of Homeland Security (26)
Disaster Preparedness (5)
Distributed Operations (5)
Dogs (15)
Donald Trump (27)
Drone Campaign (4)
EFV (3)
Egypt (12)
El Salvador (1)
Embassy Security (1)
Enemy Spotters (1)
Expeditionary Warfare (17)
F-22 (2)
F-35 (1)
Fallujah (17)
Far East (3)
Fathers and Sons (2)
Favorite (1)
Fazlullah (3)
FBI (39)
Featured (190)
Federal Firearms Laws (18)
Financing the Taliban (2)
Firearms (1,802)
Football (1)
Force Projection (35)
Force Protection (4)
Force Transformation (1)
Foreign Policy (27)
Fukushima Reactor Accident (6)
Ganjgal (1)
Garmsir (1)
general (15)
General Amos (1)
General James Mattis (1)
General McChrystal (44)
General McKiernan (6)
General Rodriguez (3)
General Suleimani (9)
Georgia (19)
GITMO (2)
Google (1)
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (1)
Gun Control (1,674)
Guns (2,342)
Guns In National Parks (3)
Haditha Roundup (10)
Haiti (2)
HAMAS (7)
Haqqani Network (9)
Hate Mail (8)
Hekmatyar (1)
Heroism (5)
Hezbollah (12)
High Capacity Magazines (16)
High Value Targets (9)
Homecoming (1)
Homeland Security (3)
Horses (2)
Humor (72)
Hunting (43)
ICOS (1)
IEDs (7)
Immigration (114)
India (10)
Infantry (4)
Information Warfare (4)
Infrastructure (4)
Intelligence (23)
Intelligence Bulletin (6)
Iran (171)
Iraq (379)
Iraq SOFA (23)
Islamic Facism (64)
Islamists (98)
Israel (19)
Jaish al Mahdi (21)
Jalalabad (1)
Japan (3)
Jihadists (81)
John Nagl (5)
Joint Intelligence Centers (1)
JRTN (1)
Kabul (1)
Kajaki Dam (1)
Kamdesh (9)
Kandahar (12)
Karachi (7)
Kashmir (2)
Khost Province (1)
Khyber (11)
Knife Blogging (7)
Korea (4)
Korengal Valley (3)
Kunar Province (20)
Kurdistan (3)
Language in COIN (5)
Language in Statecraft (1)
Language Interpreters (2)
Lashkar-e-Taiba (2)
Law Enforcement (6)
Lawfare (14)
Leadership (6)
Lebanon (6)
Leon Panetta (2)
Let Them Fight (2)
Libya (14)
Lines of Effort (3)
Littoral Combat (8)
Logistics (50)
Long Guns (1)
Lt. Col. Allen West (2)
Marine Corps (280)
Marines in Bakwa (1)
Marines in Helmand (67)
Marjah (4)
MEDEVAC (2)
Media (68)
Medical (146)
Memorial Day (6)
Mexican Cartels (42)
Mexico (62)
Michael Yon (6)
Micromanaging the Military (7)
Middle East (1)
Military Blogging (26)
Military Contractors (5)
Military Equipment (25)
Militia (9)
Mitt Romney (3)
Monetary Policy (1)
Moqtada al Sadr (2)
Mosul (4)
Mountains (25)
MRAPs (1)
Mullah Baradar (1)
Mullah Fazlullah (1)
Mullah Omar (3)
Musa Qala (4)
Music (25)
Muslim Brotherhood (6)
Nation Building (2)
National Internet IDs (1)
National Rifle Association (97)
NATO (15)
Navy (30)
Navy Corpsman (1)
NCOs (3)
News (1)
NGOs (3)
Nicholas Schmidle (2)
Now Zad (19)
NSA (3)
NSA James L. Jones (6)
Nuclear (63)
Nuristan (8)
Obama Administration (221)
Offshore Balancing (1)
Operation Alljah (7)
Operation Khanjar (14)
Ossetia (7)
Pakistan (165)
Paktya Province (1)
Palestine (5)
Patriotism (7)
Patrolling (1)
Pech River Valley (11)
Personal (73)
Petraeus (14)
Pictures (1)
Piracy (13)
Pistol (4)
Pizzagate (21)
Police (659)
Police in COIN (3)
Policy (15)
Politics (985)
Poppy (2)
PPEs (1)
Prisons in Counterinsurgency (12)
Project Gunrunner (20)
PRTs (1)
Qatar (1)
Quadrennial Defense Review (2)
Quds Force (13)
Quetta Shura (1)
RAND (3)
Recommended Reading (14)
Refueling Tanker (1)
Religion (495)
Religion and Insurgency (19)
Reuters (1)
Rick Perry (4)
Rifles (1)
Roads (4)
Rolling Stone (1)
Ron Paul (1)
ROTC (1)
Rules of Engagement (75)
Rumsfeld (1)
Russia (37)
Sabbatical (1)
Sangin (1)
Saqlawiyah (1)
Satellite Patrols (2)
Saudi Arabia (4)
Scenes from Iraq (1)
Second Amendment (687)
Second Amendment Quick Hits (2)
Secretary Gates (9)
Sharia Law (3)
Shura Ittehad-ul-Mujahiden (1)
SIIC (2)
Sirajuddin Haqqani (1)
Small Wars (72)
Snipers (9)
Sniveling Lackeys (2)
Soft Power (4)
Somalia (8)
Sons of Afghanistan (1)
Sons of Iraq (2)
Special Forces (28)
Squad Rushes (1)
State Department (23)
Statistics (1)
Sunni Insurgency (10)
Support to Infantry Ratio (1)
Supreme Court (62)
Survival (204)
SWAT Raids (57)
Syria (38)
Tactical Drills (38)
Tactical Gear (15)
Taliban (168)
Taliban Massing of Forces (4)
Tarmiyah (1)
TBI (1)
Technology (21)
Tehrik-i-Taliban (78)
Terrain in Combat (1)
Terrorism (96)
Thanksgiving (13)
The Anbar Narrative (23)
The Art of War (5)
The Fallen (1)
The Long War (20)
The Surge (3)
The Wounded (13)
Thomas Barnett (1)
Transnational Insurgencies (5)
Tribes (5)
TSA (25)
TSA Ineptitude (14)
TTPs (4)
U.S. Border Patrol (6)
U.S. Border Security (19)
U.S. Sovereignty (24)
UAVs (2)
UBL (4)
Ukraine (10)
Uncategorized (99)
Universal Background Check (3)
Unrestricted Warfare (4)
USS Iwo Jima (2)
USS San Antonio (1)
Uzbekistan (1)
V-22 Osprey (4)
Veterans (3)
Vietnam (1)
War & Warfare (419)
War & Warfare (41)
War Movies (4)
War Reporting (21)
Wardak Province (1)
Warriors (6)
Waziristan (1)
Weapons and Tactics (79)
West Point (1)
Winter Operations (1)
Women in Combat (21)
WTF? (1)
Yemen (1)

December 2024
November 2024
October 2024
September 2024
August 2024
July 2024
June 2024
May 2024
April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

about · archives · contact · register

Copyright © 2006-2024 Captain's Journal. All rights reserved.