Additional Deliberations On Virginia Anti-Paramilitary Law
BY Herschel Smith
6 years, 11 months ago
This analysis came by way of email today.
People have been going nuts about the proposed anti-Paramilitary law in Virginia. They have been making all sorts of stuff up, including that it will apply to martial arts instructors. It lacks rationality and does not reflect well on pro-2A folks.
So let’s take a look at this with a little bit of rationality and perspective. Firstly, let’s understand that there is already an anti-paramilitary law in Virginia, since 1987.
[ … ]
When I started MVT, I was aware of this code. This was one of the factors that led me to build the VTC in West Virginia. West Virginia has an anti-Militia law, but not an anti-paramilitary one.
Note that the key part of this code is: “such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.” This is the absolute key point. It is also why in the disclaimer packet for attending training at MVT, you sign that you do not intend to utilize this training for unlawful or civil disorder purposes.
Now, it seems absolutely fair to me that State Government does not want anyone training for the purposes of Civil Disorder. Would you want some dudes down the road training in firearms and explosives with the purpose of conducting terrorist activities? I don’t think so. So the key point here, and why you must take care to protect yourself, is not so much the law itself, but the political motivations behind the politicians and enforcement agencies. And we now have a situation where Virginia has gone blue in the legislature and we face very real threats to the 2A.
My assessment of this amendment to the current law is that it is aimed specifically at armed protest marches that may / will occur if / when some of the new anti-2A laws are passed in the 2020 session. Also, if you are not careful with your rhetoric, you may be prosecuted under any parts of this law. I have already seen talk of lobby day being an armed protest, which will likely be before this law is in effect. Anyone showing up armed at any of these sort of political protests will be at risk from this law. This applies to militia groups from both sides of the political divide, and we have already seen leftist groups showing up armed to protests. I think this new law is an attempt to head off this kind of armed protest to the proposed anti-2A laws in the 2020 session.
Of course, depending on the political climate, we cannot expect this to be applied equally across the political spectrum. It should not be applied to private or commercial tactical or firearms training, but it may be if you become a target due to rhetoric. An intent for civil disorder needs to be shown, and a snitch could provide that. At least enough that your life is seriously impacted by law enforcement action, even if it is ultimately not proved in court.
I believe that a greater threat is the push for sweeping anti-2A laws coming in the 2020 session. I can’t understand the drive of some to protest while openly armed. That isn’t what firearms are for, and by doing so you may will put yourself in a poor tactical situation should it kick off due to any number of potential causes.
The rest of Max’s analysis can be read here.
I agree with some of this, but I also disagree with some of it, or at least, I would emphasize different things.
First of all, I was also aware that Senate Bill No. 64 was an amendment to the existing code, not a new code. However, as I stated in the comments to my analysis, “This seemingly would also prohibit open carry (Virginia is an open carry state) as well as congregations of individuals as happened in Charlottesville. Finally, you’ll notice that the code is “amended and reenacted.” Apparently, no one has enforced a provision to prohibit tactical training thus far. You can bet your bottom dollar they will now.”
Taking a deeper dive into these waters, Max asks this. “Would you want some dudes down the road training in firearms and explosives with the purpose of conducting terrorist activities? I don’t think so.”
But that’s exactly what’s happening as we speak. There are Islamist paramilitary training compounds operating around the nation today, one of them in Rock Hill, South Carolina. I recall discussing this face to face a few years ago with John Guandolo at Understanding the Threat. To the best of our knowledge, this camp is still in operation with no pressure to cease operations. And take special note – South Carolina also has a law similar to the one in Virginia, i.e., S.C. Code 16-8-20. To date, no officer of South Carolina has used this law to shut down the camp in Rock Hill. One of those training camps is also in Virginia, and the Sheriff has defended them.
So there will indeed be bias in the application of this Virginia law. Besides, what constitutes a “terrorist activity” is in the eyes of the beholder. To some, an Islamist training camp constitutes a terrorist threat. Others couldn’t seem to care less (viz. the officers of SC). To some, patriots training for protection of home and hearth, or for protection against a tyrannical government, constitutes a terrorist threat.
Max and others have to remember that the way this all plays out will be a function of overzealous prosecutors and jurors who are soccer moms from Alexandria, Virginia, whose husbands probably work in some sort of government work. To them, an open carrier is a terroristic threat, and especially two open carriers who go to dinner with their families. Two or more guys who go rucking in the mountains while carrying rifles as part of their own personal fitness training would certainly be perceived by soccer moms in Alexandria as a threat. Remember what David Codrea has recently observed concerning this: “Eyes of the beholder.”
As for those documents Max has his students sign, I hope it works out to protect him, but we’ve seen that the FedGov apparently intends to monitor financial transactions on firearms, and monitor social media in an Orwellian pre-crime program. If the government finds social media posts they don’t like from one of the “tactical studies” students, that agreement they signed might not be worth the paper it’s printed on. Whether the instructor knew the alleged “real” intent of receiving the training or not may not make any difference. And whether the FedGov or state officers of Virginia really know the intent of receipt of the training is questionable, because it all goes to state of mind.
However, I certainly agree with Max that the larger threat concerns anti-2A laws concerning firearms. This is the holy grail for the collectivists, and it’s where they will focus all of their energy. But the bills on firearms and Senate Bill No. 64 are coupled – they are corollaries of each other. It will be illegal to own certain firearms, and it will be illegal to receive training on those firearms, perhaps to the extent of range training at gun clubs or even for concealed handgun permits. Time will tell how far this goes.
So the law existed before, but it will be reenacted with some modifications. I see this as a threat to liberties, and the enforcement of it may become a model for other states.
|
|
” I can’t understand the drive of some to protest while openly armed. That isn’t what firearms are for,”
Uh, okay. Thats naive hopium along the lines of open carry vs concealed. Concealed wins so as not to scare the soccer moms and normies. Yet, you need permission from mommy government to carry concealed. Police though, should have that show of force via open carry because reasons. Namely, government should have a monopoly on force. Which is what these new VA laws are designed to do, with vague open ended intentions.
Farmers! Put down the pitchforks! This isn’t who we are! Farmers, don’t protest via your tractors clogging the roads or spraying manure on government buildings! Thats a biozhard you yellow vests!
Meanwhile in Portland, Seattle, etc…antifa roam free.
To ascribe such limited intent to SB64 is bizarrely naïve of MVT. The intent of the politicians is to use SG64 to go after political opponents, to stop protests before they get started, and to use force to end protests that do start.
MVT quotes the end of a sentence (“such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.”) and skips the first and critical part that determines guilt or innocence: “….knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training…..”.
SB64 is a red flag law for politics and protest.
“Having reason to know” is subjective and up to the prosecutor to determine, and the gun hating prosecutor will always be able to state “you should have known”. MVT’s form he has students sign will mean nothing.
“Civil disobedience” is in the eye of the beholder. And people don’t have to engage in civil disobedience for the law to be applied. The government just has to believe that a person will engage “in furtherance” of a future protest. The protest never has to occur for the law to be applicable.
And you are too limited – SB64 goes far beyond firearms. “…or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons” includes all kinds of training. Are karate, BJJ, TKD, boxing, techniques that can cause injury? Absolutely. Don’t think that the people behind SB64 won’t use any and every excuse to go after their opponents.
The rule of law is dead in the USA. The law is applied by the state, and to its benefit. The Democrats in Virginia want guns and gun owners gone, and they will do whatever they can – legal or not, Constitutional or not – to do it.
It is disappointing to see such assumptions relying on the balanced or good intentions of others who are sworn to disarm you. Has me shaking my head. Also, when the .Gov can jam up someone’s life for years over the presence of 2 parts in a household by successfully arguing “constructive intent” I have no faith they would honor someone’s signature on a disclaimer form.
Herschel,
I commend your willingness to engage Max’s comments on the Virginia Anti-Paramilitary Law. As usual, you were dignified and respectful in your remarks.
He commented on your article on his forum as follows:
“Both him [his?] and the two comments were made by low intelligence types who clearly did not read or understand what was written.
Always remember, most people are stupid. That is what we are dealing with. Reading comprehension and rational thought are not the strongpoints of many. Hence the wingnut right alongside the loony left.”
https://maxvelocitytactical.com/forums/topic/virginia-anti-paramilitary-law-perspective-rationality/#post-130772
His attitude (about this and exhibited in many other posts) is quite revealing. So much so that in the future I will no longer frequent his forum or train with him. As a Christian I simply cannot abide the way he treats people and refuse to throw any more money his way. Max is an arrogant, condescending prima dona of monumental proportions. His forum is an echo chamber, and he actively discourages his alumni from visiting or posting from sites that he considers to be less than worthy (Captains Journal being one of them).
Keep up the good work.
Mr. Velocity has a very British “rationality and perspective” and it’s this very British perspective that is the reason he can’t offer his services in jolly ol’ England. It’s that reasonableness that has left his own people back in GB with nothing but plastic sporks for self defense.
It is rational and a right perspective to know that you know that this law WILL be used in conjunction with other laws to end firearms training, and I don’t doubt one bit, if some politician doesn’t like some martial arts instructor, well, he’s under the bus as well.
I was chatting with a man in England who insisted that it was much better that nobody had a firearm on the bridge last week when that Moslom Yuuth starting attacking people. Very reasonable and rational was his argument.
You can poke a man with a tusk but you can’t mount a bayonet on a rifle? That’s actual brain damage from propaganda and its retarded.
Reasonable men must make concessions to rationality in order to enjoy their plastic sporks!
Count me among the completely irrational.
@Travis,
Thanks for the kindness.
I think the focus here has to be on how this will be applied. Even though my training and professional creds are in engineering, I am accustomed to reading the CFR and all of the mess that entails, and my brother is a lawyer. So I know how the legal world works, at least to some degree.
I simply couldn’t care any less whether he encourages or discourages people from coming to or commenting on anything I write.
Concerning reading comprehension, I can handle differential equations and Prof. Alvin Plantinga.
I can get along fine for my needs.
The tell-tale sign of someone reacting emotionally is a failure to engage the arguments. Max’s few comments here and elsewhere have been highly emotionally charged. Some people own their words in a way that forces them into a corner. I put my words out almost more for the point of deliberation and debate.
Look at how many commenters have disagreed with me in the past. I usually don’t delete them unless it becomes rude or vulgar.
EDIT: Make sure to note that I make no claims of being a tactical trainer of any kind. I can handle teaching fundamental skills on a square range, and how to maintain physical fitness. But if you throw your money at me for small unit fire and maneuver training or close quarters battle and room clearing, you’re wasting time and money. That’s something you’d pay my son for. All I can do is draw pretty pictures of satellite patrols and squad rushes because he told me how it works. You don’t want to pay me money for pictures. I make no claims to be his equal on the battlefield, or anyone else for that matter. I have no military experience.
This was more about social, cultural and legal commentary. You’re more qualified for this if you play chess and understand the nature of fallen mankind.
Travis,
Good comments.
About “Max”: I agree 100%.
I read a few things from him that didn’t seem right, hence I don’t visit his site anymore.
Pretty sure we who read this blog daily for years understand and appreciate Herschel’s qualifications but mostly his insights. And I agreed with the first two “wingnut” posts above.
I also understand dismissing a troll without engaging. But the post we are commenting on was not trolling, was respectful and insightful.
It’s a fragile ego that dismisses a rational argument by explaining that one is more intelligent than another.
Many people read and appreciate this blog. I saw a link last week from Vox Day’s blog to TCJ: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-mask-comes-off.html
Vox Day understands the problem, as shown in his post. But I guess he’s now in the mix of MV’s low intelligence types.
I don’t mind being in the company of TCJ’s readers.
So he discusses and infers how the ” low intelligence” types interpret this legislation. Well I may not be any Einstein but I think I can state with some certainty that the controllers nearly always push their agendas as far as they can. We have seen laws designed to do one thing morph into something that allows tyranny in unexpected areas.
Examples are the anti-terrorism laws and Red Flag laws. Someone who in anger says something to another person is, in many cases, now considered to be a domestic terrorist regardless of the circumstances. The red flag laws are already morphing, as we watch, into the state being able to deny rights on a whim. These proposed laws will no doubt be pushed to absurd interpretations with the full support of the DAs and the courts.
I may not be that bright Max, but I can read the writing on the wall.
I have 500 quatloos that says this law is never applied to Antifa.
“I may not be that bright Max, but I can read the writing on the wall.”
Yep.
MVT replied emotionally. Thats OK, don’t sweat it or take his comments personally.
He read enough here and elsewhere to know the idea that SB64 is more than what it appears.
If we are wrong and MVT is right, thats fine. But if we are right then as soon as events start unfolding MVT (and others) will see the writing on the wall.
And all should stay rational, don’t get personal and burn bridges. If it goes bad and people adjust their position, don’t hold it against them and do the “I told you so”. Keep the bridges open and welcome converts.
@Dave,
I don’t take things personally. I’m sure that Mr. Max is an awesome trainer. And as for the British way of doing things, my former Marine son once told me that the Brits had the lock on exactly how to do satellite patrols better than anyone else, and the Marines learned it from them.
Again, I’m certain that training with him is worthy of your time (although I haven’t the money for such), but it would be better if people would simply send emails to ask questions, or linkback/trackback with Socratic dialogue. That’s the way real learning happens.
As far as I’m concerned the entire British military are traitors for letting the Englishmen be disarmed, and they therefor can’t be trusted in any matter whatsoever. And if you ask those individual soldiers if the average bloke in England should be allowed to have an M4, well, Great Britain is no longer great and it’s no longer Britain at all. Man, I hope the Americans have the guts to fight this out instead whimper our way into the dustbin of history as well. I have my doubts.
[…] RTWT, including comments. […]
MVT quoted “such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.”
Remind me what Rooftop Korean was all about? Were they employing their rifles ”for use in” a civil disorder? Depends on the prosecutor…
[…] Additional Deliberations On Virginia Anti-Paramilitary Law […]
SADLY, as previously has happened at each step
these commies have taken towards encroaching
upon our rights…Nothing will happen to quell them.
UNTIL – everyone has come to the point of having
NOTHING ELSE TO LOSE.
Then, and only then, will folks get off their dead asses
and stand up for our REPUBLIC.
Till then, it’ll be only talk and rah, rah…
May God have MERCY upon this Republic !
As for me, there will only be a rumor of their demise
returned to where they came from.
Gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves.
The problem max and others seem to be overlooking is that this puts a hell of a lot of power in the governments hands through ‘prosecutorial discretion’. In a lot of ways, our standard of justice has been turned on its head. Instead of the government being required to prove you are guilty, you are now required to prove your innocence, which is of course impossible. These laws could, and likely will, end up essentially requiring you to prove a negative, which is of course impossible. Also, in a similar vein, you will have politically ambitious prosecutors looking to move up the political ladder and ride this ‘blue wave’ and deciding to make a name for themselves going after people like us just because they can and because of the optics. Even if you are ultimately acquitted, fighting these things out in court against a government that cares not one little bit how much it costs will ruin you financially. They won’t even care if they win their case either, as long as it gets them some headlines and talking points for the election, and they care not one bit if it bankrupts a few plebs in the process. And the people they choose to exercise this tactic on won’t be fellow leftists like these antifa or ‘redneck revolt’ groups either.
Another fair question to ask regarding these laws is : since there are already laws on the books regarding militia activity, what specific incident or activity is this law needed to prevent or curb, and how are existing laws insufficient to do so? Is there any incident that has occurred that this law would have prevented? Etc…
The wording is the most diabolical dimension, beyond their intended
purpose of drafting this illegal writ…
SO, they want the privilege of DETERMINING INTENT.
Well, we all know how well that works just by watching their farce of
an inquisition on Trump…and associates.
It all boils down to the fact that they want total power…which translates,
simply, into total tyranny.
DEATH TO TYRANTS !
The Patriot movement has been warning for decades…
We told you so, we told you so…and by the way, WE TOLD YOU SO !
So the question remains….
What are YOU going to do about ?
I’ll tell you what we’ve been doing about it…
Arm, Equip, and Train !
And you had better be going about it like you’re the third monkey fighting
to get on the ark.
The Red Terror is here, they’re assuming power, and they have plans…
Which may, or may not include you. Are YOU willing to let them decide ?
Max’s opinion might be valid if we had a Constitution that was upheld.
Re: red flag laws,now property can be taken before any due process or being able to confront your accused. Hearings supposed to be in days or week’s taking months.
Recent failings at the FBI at the highest levels.
Bloomberg and Soros funding prosecutors and politicians who are anti 2 nd amendment.
For perspective read: The Politics of Heroin,CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade by Alfred W. McCoy revised edition
“Note that the key part of this code is: ‘such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.'”
Seems to me that a clever (((prosecutor))) could easily read this to ban outlaw self-defense in a SHTF scenario.
Max reads this totally incorrectly when he says “Now, it seems absolutely fair to me that State Government does not want anyone training for the purposes of Civil Disorder.” He’s inferring that the phrase “in FURTHERANCE of a civil disorder” is the dominant one. But it’s not: the bill bans paramilitary training “for USE in” civil disorder, which clearly encompasses self-defense. The additional clause, “in furtherance of, a civil disorder” is an afterthought predicated by “OR.”
Set up an armed neighborhood watch during the next race riots — like the Koreans did in LA??? That’ll be illegal, when the smoke clears YOU get arrested and your guns get confiscated, while the looters get off scot-free to go back to their Sec. 8 apartment to watch their stolen flat-screen.
These laws will also force the closure of paintball and airsoft arenas. Playing those games teaches and practices small unit tactics. Another game that teaches small unit tactics, and individual attack and defense, is football. High school wrestling? Beware of verbiage politicians use and the rabbit holes they lead to.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, and every other tyrannical despot in history did everything they did after what they were intending to do was codified by ‘the law’. Every murderous rein by these despots was done according to the letter of ‘the law’. It has been like this for millennium. It is why so much blood, sweat, and tears were shed – over literally hundreds of years – by commoners (history’s Deplorables) to bring us Common Law. So that the law was a tool to protect everyone NOT just despotic rulers. The law is a tool. Like a hammer, knife, or firearm. Or omni present surveillance. Whether or not a tool is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ depends on whom is wielding the tool, what the actual intended purpose of the tool is, how the tool is actually being used. It is, therefore, as appropriate to analyze the potential threat that comes from a tool in the form of the law as it is to analyze the threats that come from tools like firearms. American Marxists paint every firearm (not in Marxist hands) as evil. Their push to eliminate the firearm tool in American Patriot’s hands is not out of stated desire for public safety but to remove the largest impediment to their putsch. Just like all the Marxist despots in the opening line. All Marxist gun control laws (and this falls under that umbrella, imo) have to be viewed through that paradigm. Marxism’s goals are the same no matter where his satanic philosophies are employed. The American oligarch’s ultimate Marxist goals are no different than the Marxist’s above in the lead paragraph. They just currently lack the power and control of history’s despots (thanks in large part to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers). They are attempting to garner that power on many fronts, not the least of which comes from ‘the law’ tool. Just like all other Marxist despots. Therefore, analysis by Patriots of the potential threat posed by ‘the law’ tool to be employed must contain scenario analysis that observes the potential use of the tool by potential despots. What this frantic push is about is the desperation of the American oligarchs. Their meat puppet fedguv has lost legitimacy in the eyes of over 70% of the populous. Consent of the governed – especially an armed populous – is essential and they know they are rapidly losing it. That leaves only naked brute force as the primary form of governance, just like all Marxist dictatorships. The Marxist oligarchs and all of their guv’ment meat puppets (on the federal to local levels) want to appear as though they are operating from a position of power in their new VA blue majority. But ultimately what they are communicating is their weakness and how they intend to protect it. In the last century Marxists killed over 130 million of their own people during peace time. Any analysis of the ‘tools’ Marxist use must be viewed through that lens. That includes ‘the law’ tool.… Read more »
We are all Virginian’s now. I’m a West Virginian, it is not mere hyperbole or reflexive reactionary paranoia to give consideration to these usurpations by these usurpers in regards to their underlying well recognized stated disarmament intent, that this will remain isolated to Virginia. Originally born and raised in NH, I witnessed the the extremes gone to down in Massachusetts to disarm and proscribe any and all unalienable aspects of liberty to self defense, even to the felony crime of defending ones self and loved ones inside your castle. Bows and arrows, BB guns are even proscribed property. My state is infested with vast political corruption involving the strip mining not for coal, but the unimaginable recourses below our feet, systematic wealth transfer from the people into the hands of the few of our beautiful state, these stone cold corrupt hoplophobes and tyrants will and do anything they can get away with to retain control of these vast riches. If that entails dis-arming the people to protect the racketeering, they will move heaven and earth to do so. Sure many of these despots wear marxist or other ideological cult skin suits, but underneath the facades of legitimacy they all dress up in, just follow the money, and you discover the networks and underlying motives and objectives, which is summed up easily as what organized crime actor and their syndicates wants 100, 000 or even a handful of concerned dirt people with guns with the motive power and means to usurp the usurper from their power and wealth conduits? The constitutional carry amendment to our WV constitution faced the whole spectrum of opposition of every stripe of statism, special interests, and inalienable diktat creation imaginable, even the WV State Police Captain stated live on TV within minutes of the CC Amendment passing, at the State House that this was his forces state, that they decided who and who would be permitted weapons, and that we had not heard the end of that from them. They would be the final arbitrators of this issue of natural rights to arms. I’m not shitting, I watched it live, it was a display of absolute raw naked power uninhibited and unfettered. Ugly and depraved doesn’t begin to define this display, I had a primeval reaction only experienced under existential lethal circumstances, the automatic visceral raising of my shackles, primordial primitive brain instinctive defense flight or fight reaction. I’m recollecting best as memory serves word for word as best as I can paraphrase the WV SP Cptn here, but the intent inherent in his public declaration of absolute power was unmistakable. Of course that bit of candid officially declared diktat and threats if failure to comply with such states powers was discovered disappeared down our 5th column media memory hole not to be found anywhere. Which in itself is a serious implication in itself as to whats going on behind our knowledge in the halls and back rooms of state power. Our unalienable rights are the… Read more »
[…] https://www.captainsjournal.com/2019/12/02/additional-deliberations-on-virginia-anti-paramilitary-la… […]