U.S. Army NGSW 6.8mm vs M4 5.56 | The truth needs to be told
BY Herschel Smith
1 year, 11 months ago
Our buddy Andy at Practical Accuracy has some thoughts on the M4 replacement (Next Gen Squad Weapon) we’ve recently discussed.
Make sure to watch it all, and some of the comments are interesting too.
On May 5, 2022 at 4:59 am, J. Smith said:
I love all the product placement$
We could have converted all M-4’s in depot to either basically the same cartridge as a 6-6.5mm TCU but in 5.56 in the M-4’s for chump change with no impact to weight, length, etc.. that would have increased range and lethality. J.D. Jones already did it. No, retired generals that lobby for, or sit on the boards of defense companies push for this bullshit. I think they want to change to desert colored weapons cause black rifles are racist. Just like the new army fitness test, this will die on the vine also with the other good idea fairy proposals once women cant carry it or shoot it. All the female CID agents I worked with hated the new sig pistol, it was too bulky, mind you most of them wee lesbians that said to conceal it was difficult. I’ll stop there. With the army’s new stated goal of having at least 50% women and transgenders in the infantry, the choice of rifles and calibers is my second to last concern.
On May 5, 2022 at 5:22 am, Joe Blow said:
Stuff like this, and J. Smiths comment are the symptom of the problem. The problem is the rot is so fetid, and so deep, its not salvageable. Scuttle the ship, start anew. Sad to say, but prove me wrong – this republic cannot be saved. The military industrial complex owns our military, there will be no patriotic revolt coming from them, they will be used by our rulers to supress the patriots who are nearing revolt.
On May 5, 2022 at 6:03 am, Fred said:
@Joeblow, yep, that’s the plan. They need a woke army for domestic occupation.
On May 5, 2022 at 8:44 am, June J said:
Today’s government = King George’s
Today’s military = British military
Today’s woke citizenry = Tories
Today’s indifferent fence sitters = Same folks back then
On May 5, 2022 at 8:45 am, Michael Gilson said:
Remember this Forgotten Weapons video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Njddshr3n8 Why couldn’t the same principle be applied to 5.56mm? Make a 55 grain bullet, but use a less dense material to make it as long and low drag as you can and still reliably function, combining higher initial velocity with better velocity retention.
On May 5, 2022 at 10:29 am, Drake said:
The Marines were smart to just keep the M16A4 with a 20″ barrel for Riflemen. I never understood why they kept the stupid fixed stock on them instead of an adjustable AR stock. My biggest complaint on the A2 I carried was shooting it while wearing armor – totally changed my position on the rifle sights.
And yeah – just converting the existing rifles to 6mm ARC or Valkyrie, Grendel, whatever would have extended ranges and improved penetration.
This is just another expensive boondoggle – because there are no longer any constraints on government spending.
On May 5, 2022 at 10:45 am, Herschel Smith said:
@Drake,
Yea, it’s beyond me why, if they wanted more range, some of the rifles wouldn’t be converted with a new upper to Grendel. A change to the upper and a magazine would do it.
Finished. Done.
On May 5, 2022 at 12:51 pm, James said:
I just reread Stanley Chist’s treatise on the ‘6mm Optimum’; 100gr, 2900fps muzzle, supersonic out to 1200meters.
6mm AR and 6mm ARC does or can do all of that. I agree with Andy.
On May 5, 2022 at 1:43 pm, Russell G. said:
@Michael Gilson you can easily change the sectional density (like using total copper), however, the 223/556 case is limited on the internal case volume. So, as you have a large chunk of projectile sitting rear of the cannelure and olgive you reduce powder volume. That was one of the problems they initially ran into qualifying the 223 for the mil spec in terms of velocity and distance. You can move to a faster powder to get the pressure but the velocity usually doesn’t follow. Especially in a 16in barrel.
And, I agree with many of the above comments. You can stick in a 90-100gr slug in a Grendel case (down from the 123 norm) and get some good velocity and accuracy at the same time.
On May 5, 2022 at 5:15 pm, George 1 said:
How many people Sig had to pay off? Between the pistols, scopes and now this rifle they seem to be on a roll.
On May 5, 2022 at 10:14 pm, Michael Gilson said:
@Russell G. I’ll be the first to admit I’m no ballistics expert. Cheating by borrowing from existing work, I was thinking of replicating the shape and dimensions of the 77 grain long range bullets, but making them less dense so they only weigh 55 grains.
On May 5, 2022 at 10:48 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
@ Herschel Smith
Re: “Yea, it’s beyond me why, if they wanted more range, some of the rifles wouldn’t be converted with a new upper to Grendel. A change to the upper and a magazine would do it. Finished. Done.”
That solution would be both the most-effective and the most-economical, but you know the Pentagon, and they never choose the easy or cheap solution when there’s big profits to be made with something else. And the 6.5 Grendel is clearly a superior cartridge to the new and experimental 6.8 being touted by Sig-Sauer.
On May 5, 2022 at 11:58 pm, CarlS said:
I give you a solution that became available in 2010. You can buy complete uppers and mags for 5.56, .45, etc.
BUSHMASTER 6.8mm SPC RIFLE & Upper Assembly
• 6.8 mm SPC Caliber
• 16” M4 Profile Barrel with “Izzy” Brake
• Six Position Telescoping Stocks are fitted to rifles – other stocks are available as optional installations
• Rifles Include a Lockable Hard Case with Operator’s Safety Manual, 26 Round Magazine, Orange Safety Block and Black Web Sling
• One Year Bushmaster Warranty
This gas operated semi-automatic packs a bigger punch than our 5.56mm/.223models – a .270 cal. 6.8mm SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge) specifically developed for the military, but now available commercially. Velocity averages a bit over 2600 FPS (with Hornady 115 Gr.V-Max), and the heavier bullet weights deliver a terminal energy capable of bringing down larger game – making this a very good deer cartridge. The 6.8 mm SPC was developed from a .30 Remington case which is shortened slightly to fit the AR15 type magazine. Due to the “fatter” case diameter, magazine capacity in a 30 Round AR type shell is reduced to 26 Rounds, and 6.8 specific springs and followers are used. The bolt is also different – due again to case diameter (take care not to interchange a 5.56mm/.223 bolt with a 6.8mm SPC bolt).
Both Complete Rifles, and Barreled Upper Receivers (with Magazine), are available. The Uppers will fit on, and work with, any military pattern 5.56mm/.223 caliber Lower Receiver.
Complete Rifles are shipped with one 6.8 SPC magazine, a black web sling, Operators Safety Manual and orange safety block in a lockable carrying case. Upper Receiver / Barrel Assemblies include a 6.8 SPC specific magazine.
On May 6, 2022 at 8:09 am, Latigo Morgan said:
What’s the deal with Sig getting all the government contracts, lately? Seems like someone should be looking into that. I find it difficult to believe no American owned company cannot produce something the military finds useful.
Seems there isn’t much advantage to the new caliber that is not fulfilled by current .30 caliber stocks.
Just like most military procurement contracts, something smells hinky.
On May 6, 2022 at 11:15 am, TRX said:
Back in the 1960s the Army did some testing of a 6x45mm cartridge, no more than a 5.56×45 opened up to 6mm. The results showed the 6×45 was better in every category. But the Army decided it would be too expensive to go to a different cartridge so soon after introducing the 5.56.
Remington engineer Mike Walker took home a bunch of benchest wins with a 6×45.
I still wonder if that two-piece 6.8 case had to meet the same standards the 7.62×51 and 5.56×45 had to pass. “Mil spec” encompassed extremes of temperature, water resistance, corrosion resistance, hot-chamber cook-off limits, etc. that have always driven a stake through the many two-piece or “polymer” proposals.
“The broken case extractor. Use it well, use it often…”
On May 6, 2022 at 1:49 pm, Georgiaboy61 said:
@ Latigo Morgan
Re: “What’s the deal with Sig getting all the government contracts, lately? Seems like someone should be looking into that. I find it difficult to believe no American owned company cannot produce something the military finds useful.”
Probably some sort of political or geopolitical quid pro quo behind the scenes. It has happened before. When the U.S. wanted to station a certain kind of missile in Italy in the early-mid 1980s, the Italians said fine, but the price will be picking the Beretta M9 as the replacement for the Colt M1911. Something along those lines.
There’s always the time-honored racketeering and payola, too. That’s an oldie-but-a-goodie in Washington, D.C. If Sig lobbyists found ways to lavish gifts and “donations” on certain people at the right time, it could make a difference. It’s beyond insane that foreign interests are allowed to lobby in D.C. in the first place, but it is real and is happening. And Sig-Sauer may be one of those companies with lobbyists on K Street.
On May 6, 2022 at 4:47 pm, JB said:
The next big war will reveal the strengths and weaknesses of this weapons system. As for copper bullets, I find it a costly waste of a critical material. Copper wire has doubled in price and continues to rise. Copper sheet, and pipe has become so costly it is rarely used in construction today. The militarys move to copper bullets was driven I believe by environmental crazies within the government. So as taxpayers we pay more to kill our enemies with green bullets.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/end-of-the-line-for-the-lead-bullet-regulations-bans-force-switch-to-green-ammo.amp
On May 6, 2022 at 11:19 pm, jon k said:
Everything the government says is a lie.
Its a Previous Dumbasses that Retired and Advise us weapon.
This is what happens when marksman, not fighters, run the army.