U.S. Army Chooses Sig Sauer P320

BY Herschel Smith
7 years, 1 month ago

Fox News:

The U.S. Army on Thursday awarded Sig Sauer a contract worth $580 million to make the next service pistol based on the company’s P320 handgun.

Sig Sauer beat out Glock Inc., FN America and Beretta USA, the maker of the current M9 9mm service pistol, in the competition for the Modular Handgun System, or MHS, program.

“We are both humbled and proud that the P320 was selected by the U.S. Army as its weapon of choice,” Ron Cohen, chief executive officer of Sig Sauer, said in a statement to Military.com here at SHOT Show, the world’s largest gun show, taking place this week in the city.

“Securing this contract is a testimony to Sig Sauer employees, their commitment to innovation, quality and manufacturing the most reliable firearms in the world,” Cohen added.

Whatever.  Color me unimpressed.  Go look at the model.  I’m not a Sig fanboi (nor a Glock fanboi), so I hadn’t really noticed the Sig pistols all that much.

This is God’s honest truth.  The first thing I thought when I saw that thing was “The slide profile is very tall and it has a high bore axis and so it will have worse muzzle flip” (well, I say God’s honest truth, but to be completely honest, this thought coincided with the thought “boy that thing is ugly”).

Now to be sure, you can look at the Sig fanboi forums (yes, here are such things), and they swear up and down that Sigs don’t have a high bore axis, and even if they do it doesn’t mean there’s more muzzle flip.  That’s a myth.  It isn’t real.  Seriously, you can’t make this up.  Go look at the forums yourself.

Well, here it goes, so listen up.  The bore axis is higher in this pistol than any I’ve ever seen (distance between bore and web of your hand in Cartesian space, here think the “y” axis, straight up and down).  The greater the moment arm, the greater the force.  That’s engineering mechanics to those who have taken courses in statics and dynamics.

Or to little boys who first learn to work a jack when they change a tire.  Amusingly, Uncle says “I also don’t disagree with picking the Sig. Or if they’d have picked the M&P. So long as they went with a striker-fired, polymer-framed gun that holds a lot of bullets. And isn’t an XD or Taurus.”

Well, that puts me about 180 degrees out with Uncle, since it eliminates 1911 and XDm, the only two guns I would want to take into combat.  I thought about that the other day (“If I had to go to combat, what sidearm would I want to take?”), and while my heart says 1911 because I shoot it better than any gun I have, my head says XDm for its durability, reliability, simplicity and 11 degree 1911-style grip angle.

I could beat on it with a sledge hammer and it would still work, I’m convinced.  All of you Glock owners out there, you realize that your grip isn’t the perfect 11 degrees, right?  And all of you M&P owners, take your pistol (make sure it has no rounds in the chamber first), look at it from the side, and observe the gap between the front of the slide and the frame compared to lack of gap at the rear of the gun.  You can even take your fingers and squeeze the slide together with the frame at the front of the gun.  It rattles.  This is true of all M&Ps.  The slide sits a full 1/8″ off the frame at the front sight.

You see, right?  Did you M&P owners do it like I suggested?  I don’t like that gap for reasons too numerous to outline here.  I don’t shoot 9mm (chamber pressure of around 35,000 psi compared to around 25,000 psi for the .45 ACP), and I don’t have Sigs.

As for other reviews, there is this one from Shooting Illustrated, and in it there are these nuggets.

One of the pistol’s features I really like is the cutouts on either side of the frame, which allow the magazine to be stripped forcefully from the frame when necessary, such as when correcting a double-feed.

Funny, that.  I’ve shot thousands of rounds through my XDm, and I’ve never had a double-feed.  Not a single FTF or FTE.  Not even once.  And then there is this.

My overall complaint about the P320 is a net that I’ll cast over nearly every SIG pistol: a bore axis that results in more muzzle flip than necessary.

Well, like I said.  So to reiterate my take on the Army decision … whatever.  I won’t be getting one.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks


Comments

  1. On January 23, 2017 at 1:19 am, Frank_in_Spokane said:

    From the Fox article:

    Sig touts the P320 model product as “modular” and “adaptable,” with interchangeable grips, multiple sizes and calibers that can be converted between 9mm, .357SIG and .40SGW [sic].

    Even the media that is ostensibly “on our side” of the gun debate can’t write a coherent article on guns to save their backsides.

  2. On January 23, 2017 at 1:23 am, Frank_in_Spokane said:

    “nearly every SIG pistol: a bore axis that results in more muzzle flip than necessary.”

    The only SIG I’ve ever fired was a P220 in .45 ACP, and that was a real long time ago. But I still recall thinking that it was like shooting a .22.

    So, would the 220 not fall into that category?

  3. On January 23, 2017 at 11:17 am, Jack said:

    “So to reiterate my take on the Army decision … whatever. ”

    My first thought was that the prices of SIGs will skyrocket as fanbois want “the army gun”, and the prices of other pistols will fall. Perfect, as I’m now in the market for a concealed carry pistol and a competition pistol.

    I’ll look at the XDm. Any other suggestions? (Not Glock – like you, I hate the grip angle – feels like I’m holding a brick)

  4. On January 23, 2017 at 11:22 am, Herschel Smith said:

    FN.

  5. On January 23, 2017 at 11:39 am, Jack said:

    Assuming you mean something other than the 5.7.

    I currently have a HK USP40 with the competition trigger.

    I’m pretty sure you’ve covered calibers before, and I know you’re a 45 fan.

    I’d probably go for 9mm for competition – that’s what most use, based on cost (19c vs. 28cents/rnd, and I’m not yet reloading)

    Your current thoughts re: caliber for CCW and how the FN works in that caliber?

  6. On January 23, 2017 at 12:07 pm, Herschel Smith said:

    Oh, if you mean for concealed, that’s a different issue, and I don’t know. I’d have to look, but you can do that too. I have a 5.7 and love it. I’d take an FN .45 any day. The 5.7 is only barely concealable appendix carry (and a little uncomfortable), and frankly it’s a better open carry gun.

  7. On January 23, 2017 at 1:39 pm, johnmosby said:

    High bore axis is why I no longer own any SIgs. Always felt like I was trying to “choke up” on them-grip was wrong. Sorry to disagree guys but the Glock has the perfect grip angle and feel for me . I shoot them better than everything else. Maybe you haven’t practiced with them enough! (kidding)
    Best Regards

  8. On January 23, 2017 at 2:01 pm, Herschel Smith said:

    “Maybe you haven’t practiced with them enough!” As far as I’m concerned, I haven’t practiced with any gun enough, long gun or handgun.

  9. On January 23, 2017 at 1:56 pm, Archer said:

    I always wanted to fire a SIG, and still do. Never have yet, so I can’t judge the “perceived” recoil and muzzle flip. However, the higher bore axis puts the laws of physics to work against the shooter, and that’s generally not a good plan.

    I’m also 180 degrees against Uncle. I love my XD (not the “m” model) in 9mm. The shape of the grip match my hand so well it feels like it was custom-molded, and the grip angle aligns the sights just by pointing (I always have to adjust my wrist when aiming Glocks, which I can do but it takes longer to get on target). I’ve had zero malfunctions or failures of any kind and have no qualms about trusting my life to it. And unlike the M&P, you don’t need a tool to strip it down for cleaning and maintenance.

  10. On January 24, 2017 at 1:37 am, Pat Hines said:

    I’m a SIG enthusiast, have been now for at least 8 years, or longer. I have three of them, all in .40 S&W. Don’t get me wrong, I like the M1911, just not enough to carry one, even a small one.

    My main carry weapon is a SIG P229 SAS, which is factory tuned and has the exterior smoothed to facilitate carry. It has an alloy frame and black coated, stainless steel slide. I installed laminated Rosewood grips on it, for a touch of old school. As carried, the pistol has 13 rounds available, and I carry two spare magazines for it, 37 rounds total.

    Functionally, it’s pretty easy to see the P229 has Browning DNA. Easy take down, but no link which Browning had deleted on his P35 High Power. I have no safety to worry about, the pistol is ready to shoot as it is in the holster. It has an internal firing pin block that prevents firing if the pistol is dropped. Double action trigger pull is just over 7 pounds, single action pull is about 4 and a half pounds, very smooth with a crisp break.

    I think it’s a shame that the US government insists on a safety similar to the M1911, that’s antique methodology and out of place these days.

    That said, if SIG can maintain quality at high volume, the US military will be getting a fine weapon.

  11. On January 24, 2017 at 10:35 am, joefour said:

    A commenter over on WeaponsMan blog named Kirk was not impressed (to say the least) with the P320 modular argument …

    “I see this “modularity” thing, in regards to the frame of the pistol, as reaching an end state where the commander is stuck with the itty-bitty version of the frame nearly forever, ‘cos that fit the itty-bitty lady hands of the dude or dudette that was in command three years ago, when the pistols were first issued, and now that the “new” is all done wore off, there ain’t no monies in the parts budget to pay for getting him a frame that fits…

    “Issue every pistol with a set of frames, they will lose most of them. Buy one size only, they won’t fit everyone. Make the swap a third-shop option, the swap won’t happen, ‘cos third-shop ain’t got the time to custom-fit every fucking pistol to every fucking hand, every time a weapons assignment changes.

    “Logistically, a deaf, dumb, and blind Corporal could tell you it ain’t going to work out very well, in actual practice. Units that do a lot of shooting with pistols, and who have the PLL money? Yeah, maybe… Line units? LOL…”

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Leave a comment


You are currently reading "U.S. Army Chooses Sig Sauer P320", entry #16447 on The Captain's Journal.

This article is filed under the category(s) Army,Firearms,Guns and was published January 22nd, 2017 by Herschel Smith.

If you're interested in what else the The Captain's Journal has to say, you might try thumbing through the archives and visiting the main index, or; perhaps you would like to learn more about TCJ.

26th MEU (10)
Abu Muqawama (12)
ACOG (2)
ACOGs (1)
Afghan National Army (36)
Afghan National Police (17)
Afghanistan (704)
Afghanistan SOFA (4)
Agriculture in COIN (3)
AGW (1)
Air Force (40)
Air Power (10)
al Qaeda (83)
Ali al-Sistani (1)
America (22)
Ammunition (275)
Animals (280)
Ansar al Sunna (15)
Anthropology (3)
Antonin Scalia (1)
AR-15s (372)
Arghandab River Valley (1)
Arlington Cemetery (2)
Army (86)
Assassinations (2)
Assault Weapon Ban (28)
Australian Army (7)
Azerbaijan (4)
Backpacking (2)
Badr Organization (8)
Baitullah Mehsud (21)
Basra (17)
BATFE (217)
Battle of Bari Alai (2)
Battle of Wanat (18)
Battle Space Weight (3)
Bin Laden (7)
Blogroll (3)
Blogs (24)
Body Armor (23)
Books (3)
Border War (18)
Brady Campaign (1)
Britain (38)
British Army (35)
Camping (5)
Canada (17)
Castle Doctrine (1)
Caucasus (6)
CENTCOM (7)
Center For a New American Security (8)
Charity (3)
China (16)
Christmas (16)
CIA (30)
Civilian National Security Force (3)
Col. Gian Gentile (9)
Combat Outposts (3)
Combat Video (2)
Concerned Citizens (6)
Constabulary Actions (3)
Coolness Factor (3)
COP Keating (4)
Corruption in COIN (4)
Council on Foreign Relations (1)
Counterinsurgency (218)
DADT (2)
David Rohde (1)
Defense Contractors (2)
Department of Defense (210)
Department of Homeland Security (26)
Disaster Preparedness (5)
Distributed Operations (5)
Dogs (15)
Donald Trump (27)
Drone Campaign (4)
EFV (3)
Egypt (12)
El Salvador (1)
Embassy Security (1)
Enemy Spotters (1)
Expeditionary Warfare (17)
F-22 (2)
F-35 (1)
Fallujah (17)
Far East (3)
Fathers and Sons (2)
Favorite (1)
Fazlullah (3)
FBI (39)
Featured (189)
Federal Firearms Laws (18)
Financing the Taliban (2)
Firearms (1,758)
Football (1)
Force Projection (35)
Force Protection (4)
Force Transformation (1)
Foreign Policy (27)
Fukushima Reactor Accident (6)
Ganjgal (1)
Garmsir (1)
general (15)
General Amos (1)
General James Mattis (1)
General McChrystal (44)
General McKiernan (6)
General Rodriguez (3)
General Suleimani (9)
Georgia (19)
GITMO (2)
Google (1)
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (1)
Gun Control (1,630)
Guns (2,298)
Guns In National Parks (3)
Haditha Roundup (10)
Haiti (2)
HAMAS (7)
Haqqani Network (9)
Hate Mail (8)
Hekmatyar (1)
Heroism (4)
Hezbollah (12)
High Capacity Magazines (16)
High Value Targets (9)
Homecoming (1)
Homeland Security (3)
Horses (2)
Humor (72)
Hunting (31)
ICOS (1)
IEDs (7)
Immigration (104)
India (10)
Infantry (4)
Information Warfare (4)
Infrastructure (4)
Intelligence (23)
Intelligence Bulletin (6)
Iran (171)
Iraq (379)
Iraq SOFA (23)
Islamic Facism (64)
Islamists (98)
Israel (19)
Jaish al Mahdi (21)
Jalalabad (1)
Japan (3)
Jihadists (81)
John Nagl (5)
Joint Intelligence Centers (1)
JRTN (1)
Kabul (1)
Kajaki Dam (1)
Kamdesh (9)
Kandahar (12)
Karachi (7)
Kashmir (2)
Khost Province (1)
Khyber (11)
Knife Blogging (7)
Korea (4)
Korengal Valley (3)
Kunar Province (20)
Kurdistan (3)
Language in COIN (5)
Language in Statecraft (1)
Language Interpreters (2)
Lashkar-e-Taiba (2)
Law Enforcement (6)
Lawfare (14)
Leadership (6)
Lebanon (6)
Leon Panetta (2)
Let Them Fight (2)
Libya (14)
Lines of Effort (3)
Littoral Combat (8)
Logistics (50)
Long Guns (1)
Lt. Col. Allen West (2)
Marine Corps (280)
Marines in Bakwa (1)
Marines in Helmand (67)
Marjah (4)
MEDEVAC (2)
Media (67)
Medical (146)
Memorial Day (6)
Mexican Cartels (41)
Mexico (61)
Michael Yon (6)
Micromanaging the Military (7)
Middle East (1)
Military Blogging (26)
Military Contractors (5)
Military Equipment (25)
Militia (9)
Mitt Romney (3)
Monetary Policy (1)
Moqtada al Sadr (2)
Mosul (4)
Mountains (25)
MRAPs (1)
Mullah Baradar (1)
Mullah Fazlullah (1)
Mullah Omar (3)
Musa Qala (4)
Music (25)
Muslim Brotherhood (6)
Nation Building (2)
National Internet IDs (1)
National Rifle Association (95)
NATO (15)
Navy (30)
Navy Corpsman (1)
NCOs (3)
News (1)
NGOs (3)
Nicholas Schmidle (2)
Now Zad (19)
NSA (3)
NSA James L. Jones (6)
Nuclear (62)
Nuristan (8)
Obama Administration (221)
Offshore Balancing (1)
Operation Alljah (7)
Operation Khanjar (14)
Ossetia (7)
Pakistan (165)
Paktya Province (1)
Palestine (5)
Patriotism (7)
Patrolling (1)
Pech River Valley (11)
Personal (72)
Petraeus (14)
Pictures (1)
Piracy (13)
Pistol (4)
Pizzagate (21)
Police (647)
Police in COIN (3)
Policy (15)
Politics (969)
Poppy (2)
PPEs (1)
Prisons in Counterinsurgency (12)
Project Gunrunner (20)
PRTs (1)
Qatar (1)
Quadrennial Defense Review (2)
Quds Force (13)
Quetta Shura (1)
RAND (3)
Recommended Reading (14)
Refueling Tanker (1)
Religion (491)
Religion and Insurgency (19)
Reuters (1)
Rick Perry (4)
Rifles (1)
Roads (4)
Rolling Stone (1)
Ron Paul (1)
ROTC (1)
Rules of Engagement (75)
Rumsfeld (1)
Russia (37)
Sabbatical (1)
Sangin (1)
Saqlawiyah (1)
Satellite Patrols (2)
Saudi Arabia (4)
Scenes from Iraq (1)
Second Amendment (667)
Second Amendment Quick Hits (2)
Secretary Gates (9)
Sharia Law (3)
Shura Ittehad-ul-Mujahiden (1)
SIIC (2)
Sirajuddin Haqqani (1)
Small Wars (72)
Snipers (9)
Sniveling Lackeys (2)
Soft Power (4)
Somalia (8)
Sons of Afghanistan (1)
Sons of Iraq (2)
Special Forces (28)
Squad Rushes (1)
State Department (23)
Statistics (1)
Sunni Insurgency (10)
Support to Infantry Ratio (1)
Supreme Court (52)
Survival (185)
SWAT Raids (57)
Syria (38)
Tactical Drills (38)
Tactical Gear (14)
Taliban (168)
Taliban Massing of Forces (4)
Tarmiyah (1)
TBI (1)
Technology (21)
Tehrik-i-Taliban (78)
Terrain in Combat (1)
Terrorism (96)
Thanksgiving (13)
The Anbar Narrative (23)
The Art of War (5)
The Fallen (1)
The Long War (20)
The Surge (3)
The Wounded (13)
Thomas Barnett (1)
Transnational Insurgencies (5)
Tribes (5)
TSA (24)
TSA Ineptitude (13)
TTPs (4)
U.S. Border Patrol (6)
U.S. Border Security (18)
U.S. Sovereignty (23)
UAVs (2)
UBL (4)
Ukraine (10)
Uncategorized (98)
Universal Background Check (3)
Unrestricted Warfare (4)
USS Iwo Jima (2)
USS San Antonio (1)
Uzbekistan (1)
V-22 Osprey (4)
Veterans (3)
Vietnam (1)
War & Warfare (412)
War & Warfare (41)
War Movies (4)
War Reporting (21)
Wardak Province (1)
Warriors (6)
Waziristan (1)
Weapons and Tactics (79)
West Point (1)
Winter Operations (1)
Women in Combat (21)
WTF? (1)
Yemen (1)

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

about · archives · contact · register

Copyright © 2006-2024 Captain's Journal. All rights reserved.