Elite Schools and the ROTC

BY Herschel Smith
6 years, 1 month ago

Andrew Exum recently weighed in concerning “demonizing” so-called elite universities for not having ROTC programs (viz. Columbia University).  Quoth Exum:

Okay, there is one huge problem with this. It’s easy to demonize the “elite” universities for not having more ROTC programs, but the reality is that the U.S. military has been the one most responsible for divesting from ROTC programs in the northeastern United States. It’s hardly the fault of Columbia University that the U.S. Army has only two ROTC programs to serve the eight million residents and 605,000 university students of New York City. And it’s not the University of Chicago’s fault that the entire city of Chicago has one ROTC program while the state of Alabama has ten. The U.S. military made a conscious decision to cut costs by recruiting and training officers where people were more likely to volunteer. That makes sense given an ROTC budget that has been slashed since the end of the Cold War. But it also means that the U.S. Army and its sister services are just as responsible for this divide between the so-called “elite” living within the Acela Corridor and the men and women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I was one of two Army ROTC graduates in my class at the University of Pennsylvania, but it was not the fault of Penn or the ban on gays in the military that the U.S. Army decided to shutter the ROTC program at Penn after my freshman year and move us all over to Drexel’s program. (Go Dragon Battalion, by the way!) The U.S. Army made a decision based on a logical (if short-sighted) cost-benefit analysis … we need to ask harder questions about what kind of efforts we need to make to build an officer corps that best represents the American people.

Okay, that’s enough.  Then he goes on to give us the following update: “Cheryl Miller of AEI has a response to my post up on the Weekly Standard’s website, largely agreeing with what I wrote but adding more. Cheryl is the real subject matter expert on ROTC, so be sure to read what she has to say.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but that sounds a bit sarcastic, doesn’t it?  “The real subject matter expert?”  I sense the same, tired attitude displayed by CNAS that “I’m the expert, or if I’m not, then I know someone who is, and you should listen to him, and no one else is an expert because they aren’t my expert, and if you haven’t done what I’ve done and been where I’ve been, you aren’t qualified to speak on the issue, because I’m the real expert … and oh, did I tell you that I’m the real expert at almost everything, and if I’m not, my buds are?”

In fact, it isn’t at all obvious to me that someone would have to have been an alumni of an ROTC program in order to comment on what kind of people we want in ROTC programs.  Remember that civilian control of the military thing?  Many military experts commenting over the web (various sites) claim that they want civilian input, but that’s usually a ruse.

So someone tell me why it’s a good thing to “build an officer corps that best represents the American people?”  Why would I place positive value on such a thing?  Do we want mediocre students along with bright ones?  If the answer is no, we just want the best students who represents sectors of society, then we’ve already discriminated.  Discrimination.  It’s not a bad thing in the right context.  Discrimination helps to categorize red lights from green lights, and color blind people sometimes cannot do that.

Greyhawk comments thusly about this issue: “If the goal of the faculty of Columbia is to produce graduates unfit for doing the rough work of a workaday world, they’re demonstrably good at what they do. (I’m not sure why anyone, much less the military, should view their product as desirable employees.)”

I’ll be even a little more blunt.  I see no compelling reason whatsoever to care enough to start ROTC programs on the campuses of “elite” universities.  In fact, if offered a choice, I would prefer that we don’t.  Would we rather have students from the Ivy League universities who have been schooled in Jacques Derrida, or from Southern universities schooled in the sciences?  I mean no disrespect to those readers who have studied hard in the social sciences or other-than hard sciences like physics or math.  But I am saying that there is a qualitative difference in the result produced between the two approaches, and the products are intended for different ends.

I know.  I took literature too, and all of the social sciences, and I didn’t really learn to think about the humanities until I attended seminary and took historical theology and apologetics, and read things you won’t read in Ivy League universities such as “An Introduction to Ancient Philosophy” by A. H. Armstrong, Carl Becker’s “Heavenly City of the Eighteenth Century Philosophers”, Frederick Copleston, Ronald Nash, Gordon H. Clark, Alvin Plantinga, W. G. T. Shedd, Francis Turretin, Charles Hodge, William Cunningham and John Calvin.  Such writings would challenge the order of things.  The universities are cheating our students into thinking that they are learning something by teaching them deconstruction, race studies and feminism.

But I took kinematics, statics and dynamics, calculus and fluid mechanics too (just not in seminary).  I can still think of no compelling reason at all to pursue the Ivy League schools.  Let me see.  Someone who studied the humanities from Columbia, or someone who studied fluid mechanics and calculus in a Mechanical Engineering major from Clemson University, N.C. State or Georgia Tech?  It seems pretty clear to me.  Who would you rather have commanding an M1A1?

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I am with you on this one and would add if someone from an Elite school wants to join the military they have other avenues than ROTC. The Marine Corps has their Platoon leaders program the Navy has an OCS program for any college graduate. Graduates from the elite schools that seek the military out would be more of the exceptional ones that might actually be worth having in an M1A2.

Bob Sykes

I would go further and exclude graduates of the elite schools from military service and from the foreign service. The basic issue is the loyalty of the elite school graduates.


I would argue perhaps a little differently, that the workings of democracy are improved not diminished by enhancing the reach of our openness and understandings. A professional officer corp is likewise enhanced by the reach of its gene-pool of volunteer participants. The right stuff comes through and shines when it needs to be recognized for our best interests.

Humility, respect for the constitutional supremacy of civil authority, is as likely to be found North of the Mason-Dixon Line, as South of it.

The current rogue iconoclastic President is not proof that Ivy-League would produce rogue iconoclastic generals. Col. West on the other hand is a leader in war, and a Southern in all respects. Success in politics at the highest levels, may prove to require leadership characteristics not assured by Southern heritage vis. Jimmy Carter.

I would argue the bigger the gene-pool the better our chances.


Hi, Guys- It is a bit dizzying to see you compete in declaring how rogue, yet stupid, yet conventional, yet iconoclastic, the Ivy products are.

Anyhow, the original point has merit- that it doesn’t behoove a democracy to compose its military forces from an unrepresentative sample of the population, even a hereditary caste of sorts. And the extent to which the old South is dominant in the armed forces is also troubling, after one sees stirrings of secession flaring up every so often from that quarter (Texas, most recently).

And if civilian input is mostly a ruse, then it is even more imperative to compose the armed forces from a cross-section (politically, demographically, religiously, geographically, … not intellectually) of the population, so that its impulses don’t diverge too much from the population which it serves.

Thankfully, the officer schools explicitly select from all states equally. What would I do with the ROTC? I’d take it out of schools (high schools and colleges) altogether and integrate it with the reserve / national guard system, which is more evenly spread across the country. That might make it a more professional operation as well.


would you not consider the usma and the usna elite universities (colleges). in fact both universities have set standards for the liberal arts. if it is more important for an officer to have had an education in the hard sciences, then why are the military academies staunchly liberal arts? why aren’t they tech colleges?


Bob. Well said. Let’s make sure we test our new officers on their loyalty before we allow them into our nations fighting forces. You’re so right. We don’t even need to consider candidates from those ivy tower liberal factories. The last thing we need is more diversity of ideas and approaches in our military. I think our boys have things under control over there and don’t need some liberal arts show off questioning methods and structures from within. If they were loyal Americans they would have gone to a real school, stopped questioning the way our heroes fight. Keep up the good work bob. Loyal Americans don’t ask hard questions. They definitely don’t attend schools with people who might disagree with them.

“I see no compelling reason whatsoever to care enough to start ROTC programs on the campuses of “elite” universities. In fact, if offered a choice, I would prefer that we don’t. Would we rather have students from the Ivy League universities who have been schooled in Jacques Derrida, or from Southern universities schooled in the sciences?” 1. We can make an assumption that students graduating from “elite” institutions are pretty intelligent. At the very least, there’s an extremely high barrier for entry, and many of the alumni from these institutions go on to become titans of their chosen fields. Why would a military power NOT want to draw from this highly intelligent pool? Would it rather *not* have these intelligent prospective officers? 2. Further, does the study of Jacques Derrida (or a related field) imply the student is somehow less capable of comprehending military tactics and strategy? That seems to be a rather broad and baseless statement. 3. These students may come from a more diversified background than those matriculating from say NC State. Wouldn’t bringing different life experiences and perspectives to the table add to an armed force? It isn’t clear from your argument how that detracts from a… Read more »
I think one point that is being overlooked in the discussion here is that, for many of us, conservatives especially, we do not concede that the Ivy League schools (and their academic soul mates) are either “elite” or necessarily providing a good education. Rather, if you follow Glenn Reynolds over at Instapundit and Hot Air you will find a recurrent theme of the higher education bubble being the next to burst. A college degree used to really impart something to its graduates. Now, more often than not, colleges are imparting less and less real education and just filling the role of societal laboratory and inculcation factory— churning out drones who think along a certain, liberal/socialist/left wing path. Just look at how any speaker that dares to show up at a liberal campus to give a speech is shouted down, threatened or run out of town. And 99% of the time it is not only tolerated but encouraged by the campus faculty and administration. Competing viewpoints are no longer tolerated. The closing of the American Mind indeed. Sadly, a college degree is simply a social marker that tells prospective employers, spouses, colleagues etc.. where the graduate fits in the pecking order.… Read more »
Formerly BegPardon?, I apologize, I used a different name in lieu of a subject title. My mistake. To discount the knowledge obtained within a humanities perspective as useless or drivel is inherently narrow-minded, and incorrect. It is painting with with an incredibly broad brush without any empirical backing. It’s easy to point to elected leadership with whom you don’t agree with and say “Look, they’ve got an ‘elite’ degree and (I personally believe) they’re screwing up! ‘Elite’ degrees are useless!” Huge sample and selectivity bias. You completely discount the many graduates who go on to become titans of industry and their respective fields, who do have a B.A. instead of a B.S. To say a degree other than an engineering one is both incorrect and narrow-minded. Smart people go to both state schools and elite schools. Smart people study humanities and engineering sciences. Why would a military not want smart officers? Further, (broadly I’ll admit) I’d imagine those students studying Jacques Derrida *probably won’t* be considering military service. Luckily, these institutions are not only comprised of those studying humanities. In a similar vein, there are many Southern ROTC programs at institutions that do not teach engineering exclusively. I have no… Read more »

To Exum’s point, if the Army decides it’s more cost effective to have less ROTC programs in the North, fine. Does it make sense to put an entire separate battalion at say, Harvard, where only a handful of students graduate via ROTC per year? No, clearly not. But should these institutions recognize ROTC on their campuses? Yes. Would these cadets be less valuable to the military if they studied political science, or had a minor in Spanish Literature? I don’t see why.

I think you make at least one, valid point, Kyle. I do not think that a liberal arts degree is an automatic disqualifier or necessarily worse than a hard science degree, particularly where the military is looking for leadership and not specific, technical knowledge (i.e., an engineering battalion vs. combat infantry). So I, for one, do not dismiss a humanities degree as useless or drivel per se. On the other hand, as you seem to concede, the near-universal, left wing bent of the Northeastern and similar “elite” universities presents a definite handicap. It is not too much of a generalization to say that graduates of Ivy League colleges have a tendency to consider themselves to be smarter and better than non-Ivey Leaguers. That is, afterall, the reason that *most* of these people decided to attend a school that costs more each year than the homes that many people live in. They didn’t go into a mountain of debt to graduate without some feeling that they were getting a better education than the rest of us. “That argument implies that a liberal political bent inherently makes one unfit for military service, AND that every student at these institutions are liberal. Is… Read more »
TS Alfabet, without going too far off-topic, Socialism is working pretty well in the European union. Many socialist countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, etc) have the highest standards of living and happiness as measured by a number of metrics. Not that I would trade good ol’ American capitalism for anything, nor do I think it would work in our particular socio-economic state, but that statement is incorrect. Further you’re statements about those left-leaning are both incredibly general, and only accurately describe as small contingent on the edge of the political spectrum. In truth, our nation is one largely of those politically apathetic, where our political discourse is dominated by those most loud and vitriolic on both ends of the spectrum. The same description “dogmatic” can just as easily be applied to those fringe Conservatives. As far as lies, embellishment, twisting facts, it is done by both sides. And it’s wrong and unethical in both instances. But three words: Glenn-freaking-Beck. “A definite handicap.” A broad statement without any reasoning to support it. What has yet to be answered is how an education at an “elite” school makes a cadet somehow a worse leader. “Damaged goods?” Baseless, uninformed, and narrow-minded. You’re applying the… Read more »
Hardly. In response to the point on Socialism as failed, I give nations where it has not. According to the human development index, the top 10 countries with the highest standard of living are “socialist”. Again the top 10 countries in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s Quality-of-Life Index are “socialist”. TS Alfabet paints with an incredibly wide brush describing all Liberals in paragraph 5. I call him on this, and make an assertion that it describes a fringe of the political group. Is this objective? No. But it doesn’t make a subjective, blanket statement qualifying over 100 million people. I’m not fitting a narrow, specific definition to a group of over 100 million people spanning all socio-economic backgrounds. I say that the description fits a fringe on both sides of the political spectrum, and evidence this with Glenn Beck. “a definite handicap” which I categorize as broad and baseless. There was no support given to the statement, and it attempted to categorize a large swath of population. Broad. Baseless. Unless the logic that all liberals are stupid, so all liberals have handicaps is going to be accepted as ‘sound’ logic. Similarly, ‘damaged goods.’ A statement applied to millions without any shred… Read more »
I accept without due-diligence research your reported observation that ROTC’s are being supported in the Southern States over the Northern, but I think its a simple matter of cost effectiveness and nothing more. We might even discover a similar pattern for ordinary recruiting centers. If so, that too would most likely reflect cost effectiveness during tight budgets. But to align our entire democracy under your hypothesis: “I see no compelling reason whatsoever to care enough to start ROTC programs on the campuses of ‘elite’ universities,” seems fatally tribalistic and divisive. See Gordon H. Clark, “Religion, Reason and Revelation.” What is knowledge? How is knowledge acquired? How do we know what we know? I’m Gnostic-mystic. My core truths that support what I do, how I act, and my perceptions of reality are derived from personal inward meditation, revelations and statistical probabilities: http://tinyurl.com/4knlbzj My believe system is not oriented to helping me dominate the rest of this world but to find nonviolent methodologies that bridge perceived differences among viewpoints and experiences peacefully. This is often read by others as liberal and/or evil, but is instead simply a state of compassion and love…. and it’s a phase. But even from that state, when… Read more »

“Translation: Studying Jacque Derrida has no useful application in the armed forces. Studying fluid mechanics does.”


i have never read derrida. don’t even know who he is. however, for millennia generals (and military leaders in general) studied what we would consider the liberal arts. they read caesar, the aeneid, marcus aurelius, ptolemy, thucydides (in the original latin and greek), along with various works of science.

did clausewitz study fluid dynamics? did washington? napolean?

The Captain's Journal » Amelioration of Battle Space Weight and Women in Combat

[…] president of the U.S. before any white man I know (and my co-blogger agrees).  I see no need to recruit the presumed “brightest” from Ivy League schools, and no one has offered me a compelling reason to believe that the principles of war and strategy […]

Charles Holmes

Great article about ROTC.

Lots of great schools don’t have ROTC. And some great schools do.

I think it’s much more important to be selective about WHO we let enter the ROTC program, rather than where we have ROTC programs.

Good officers (and bad officers) come from just about every demographic.

Thanks for the great post.



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This article is filed under the category(s) ROTC and was published February 24th, 2011 by Herschel Smith.

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