The Effect Of Cleaning On Barrel Accuracy
BY Herschel Smith
4 years, 5 months ago
Lately, I am hearing “experts” claim that a rifle has to be dirty and fouled to shoot accurately. The prevailing theory is that the copper smears fill in the imperfections in the bore and make it more like a hand-lapped barrel. That is wrong on so many levels.
I have tested hundreds—perhaps even thousands—of rifles over my 40-year career as a gunwriter and have shot countless groups with those rifles. There is one simple truth I have learned: Clean barrels shoot much better than fouled barrels.
You must remove all the copper fouling. That means using the proper solvents and spending as much time doing so as is needed to get it all out. I have experimented with a lot of different approaches, but nothing I have found works better than an ammonia-based solvent. Right now, Montana Extreme Copper Killer is the best I have tried. When you open the bottle, the ammonia will make your eyes water, your sinuses seize up and your guts curl into a ball. That’s why it works.
Keep cleaning until you can wet the bore with solvent, wait a timed 5 minutes and then run a patch through and have it emerge out of the muzzle free from blue stains. How long will that take? Nobody knows. It might take five patches or it might take 500. About 70 percent of the time, this alone will correct a misbehaving rifle.
Here I am again asking for gunsmith advice on this. Since ammonia can cause stress corrosion cracking of steels, I am wondering how best to clear it all out, whether to use Hoppes after cleaning with an ammonia based solvent, then simply use patches to dry it, or perhaps, my favorite tool, a barrel mop?
On November 11, 2019 at 9:56 pm, Ratus said:
I think you posted the wrong link.
On November 11, 2019 at 10:23 pm, Ratus said:
Having read the article, I don’t know.
He might be right with some barrels, but I don’t think it’s worth the time and effort you put into it.
If a barrel will shoot well only when it is absolutely copper free, the it might be time to get a new one.
Also, he is making assertions of fact without any actual evidence other than “gunwriter experience”.
The fact is that most people over clean their firearms causing damage, I think it can be tracked back to black powder and then corrosive primed ammunition.
The military still massively over cleans their rifles to the point of removing the finish, in I believe, a costly way to instill an attention to detail.
On November 11, 2019 at 10:33 pm, Herschel Smith said:
@Ratus,
Thanks for the attention to detail. Link fixed.
That’s what I tend to think as well. But I don’t have the “gunwriter” experience he does, I guess. On the one hand it may be a colossal waste of time to do this every time you shoot, on the other hand perhaps it pays to do this every (?).
On November 11, 2019 at 11:07 pm, Ratus said:
Not a problem, I just wanted to get the context of the article and the author.
I’m leaning towards “it depends”.
If it’s an heirloom or a collectable firearm, only if you really want to try and get it shooting better.
But if it is a modern commodity gun, it’s a tool in the toolbox.
Of course “better” is a relative term. Better than what? How much of an improvement?
If the gun is shooting within the moa range of the type of gun then I’d probably skip it.
On a good modern barrel that is either nitrided or chrome lined it would be superfluous
On November 11, 2019 at 11:34 pm, George said:
I feel uncomfortable discussing the issue since there are many with much more expertise than me. The type of rifles that I used and had experience with were M-4s and M-16s. Being retired I now mostly shoot AR15s. My barrel (bore) cleaning procedure is as follows:
1. I soak the bore with one of the foaming bore cleaners and leave it set for a few minutes.
2. Then I “wash it out” with brake cleaner, (the non-chlorinated type).
3. Then I immediately put CLP in generously and let it set about 15 minutes.
4. I then use a bore snake (I never use a rod anymore) for several passes.
5. I put more CLP in and let it set for some time.
6. Then I use the bore snake several times.
If a high round count has been done then, I might repeat the procedure as needed. I clean until I get a nice shiny bore. I have several AR 15s and all of them will get sub-MOA groups with certain commercial match ammo. I don’t reload.
Anyway that is what I do and your mileage may vary. In my opinion concerning the harsher copper cleaning solvents with ammonia. I don’t use them anymore. I feel that I get mine clean enough the way I do it.
Now long range precision guns are something that I have little experience with. I only have one copy of a gun that is (sort of kind of) close to that. It is a hunting rifle (30-06) and it is on the heavier side. I clean it the same way that I clean my ARs. The rifle will get 3/4 MOA groups all day with good commercial ammo of it’s favorite grain size. Someone who is a better marksman could undoubtedly get more out of it.
For the real precision rifles it may be good to get every bit of copper residue out but on my guns I am happy to get the bore shiny the way I do it. If I were going to use copper cleaner I would make sure to immediately remove it by applying CLP after swabbing the bore. Most of the people who I know that shoot long range don’t seem to think it is necessary to completely remove all of the copper every time they clean their guns. However there are definitely two schools of thought there.
On November 12, 2019 at 5:24 am, BillMac said:
OK, I’ll throw my $0.02 in.
Accuracy is all about repeatability; it almost doesn’t matter what the bullet does after leaving the bore so long as every single shot does the exact same thing. The dirty bore argument has a certain logic in that the starting condition is nearly identical to that of following shots. The clean bore argument has merit in that each starting condition (first shot of a session) will be the same each time. Once that is said, this is the sort of “all or nothing” argument that both the gun community and the golf community is rife with …and for the same reason.
What counts as “accurate”? It’s considerably different depending on who’s speaking. Long Range Rifle guys clean very carefully (as a group), but they measure accuracy in fractions of a minute of angle at 800+ yards. “Accurate” for the average dear hunter in the eastern half of the continent is minute-of-dear at something less than 100 yards, and a retired military man like myself may consider minute-of-man at 500 perfectly acceptable.
For most shooters, I seriously doubt the (real) accuracy difference between the clean and the dirty (within broad reason) will be perceivable; we just don’t shoot well enough to see the difference. Like the average golfer will never see the (real) benefit of the $3K set of clubs instead of the sporting goods store set; he’s just not good enough to see the difference.
So; clean or dirty? Neither (by their definitions). Clean & lube your weapon because it improves reliability and preserves your investment from corrosion. Don’t over clean, and don’t be a jerk to the other guy whose goals and practice is different from yours.
On November 12, 2019 at 5:28 am, BillMac said:
AND ANOTHER THING! Shoot the caliber you’re comfortable with and can hit your target with: THAT’s the “best caliber”.
On November 12, 2019 at 6:15 am, Jack said:
Perspective-I am not a Bench guy, thats not my thing.
I shoot strictly with a Combat and PRS Matches
I have and shoot Numerous Long Guns in different Calibers with Bartlein barrels, all, are always Suppressed.
I only push out carbon. At best, a half dozen or so patches.
And that, isn’t done all the time.
I only “Copper” clean when my groups open up.
For me, thats 1” and over at 100 or 1 MOA at distance.
I have used Sweets(It works) or whatever turns the Shtuff Blue and removes it. It’s just a chemical reaction so i don’t get my axle wrapped about what to use. If i had to, i’d use the wife’s ammonia and then neutralize any remaining residue.
HONEST-what i mean is, just that.
I see alot of guys tell “Fishing Stories” about there groups. Thats another story. :)
“As a Shooter,” (I) can manage HONEST 3/4” groups consistently, “allday.“
On a good day, i can do, 1/2” groups over and over. And when things are real good(not alot of coffee and nicotine) i can bring it down to 1/4”.
AR types-again, all i do is push carbon out. Some are Suppressed and Some are Not. There are to many barrel types here to mention, nor do I know there True Manufacturer. They are all 1” @ 100 guns.
.
Firecracking, “maybe” the issue people see with there Accuracy but don’t realize what has happened.
I Personally watched my friend smoke a Brand New Bartlein 6mm CM barrel because of his “Firing Cadence” (ie) Mag after Mag after Mag never letting it cool. The gun went from 1/4” to 2” plus, literally, in the blink of a eye and it never returned.
He Proceeded to Clean AND Copper Clean the barrel to Absolute perfection(he’s type A Plus), and in less then 15rds the gun went right back to 2” plus @ 100.
The Firecracking, was Confirmed the culprit by the Very well known Builder/Company that I am not going to mention.
That, was a expensive lesson for him.
This is a HONEST 1/2” @ 100 allday everyday shooter with so many 1/4” @ 100 groups.
IMHO, barrels are like the wife.
First-Start off with a good one!!
Then…Get to Know her, Pay attention to her and when she begins to act out of sorts, Pay more attention to her.
This whole Topic, has a VooDoo/Mystical Aura about it.
Set 10 guys down and you’ll get 10 different ways to go about it.
It’s like Accident/Incident Witness’s.
I won’t go into Coldbore, but “my” experience AND my trainers proof before our very eyes has always been….wait for it.
“Cold Shooter” NOT Cold Bore.
How’s that for opening a can of worms. ;)
Have a good day you guys, and get training!
On November 12, 2019 at 8:18 am, Ned said:
I have a rifle that is very accurate until it reaches a certain point in fowling.
I always used a Foul Out bore cleaner on this rifle which works by electroplating a rod placed down the bore with the copper fouling from the barrel. I stopped seeing this advertised years ago, and now wonder if it caused some other problem.
Problem is you can’t really use this system with a gun that has a gas port. But It was the best thing ever for removing every speck of copper fouling.
On November 12, 2019 at 5:22 pm, Heywood said:
I am sooooooo tired of every single person saying THEIR way with THEIR cleaning products are the ONLY way and if you deviate you are WRONG. As an engineer, Herschel, you are well aware that there may be best practices, but with the enormous number of variables involved in shooting there is absolutely no possible way someone can say with 100% certainty that THEIR way is the best way in all situations. Their ego is writing checks their knowledge and abilities can’t cash. Own what you can shoot. Shoot what you own. Maintain your equipment as if your life depended on it…because it may.
On November 12, 2019 at 7:52 pm, MTHead said:
I read years ago an old G&A article by a Wyoming gunsmith about copper fouling. It was a given that barrels differ in what they like, or don’t like.
But when it came time to copper clean, he would heat the barrel first.
I’ve used this tech tip for years. it works wonders. I’ve taken barrels that I had just copper fouled cleaned, heated them with the wife’s hair dryer. And the blue crud would be more than the first time.
When you barrel heat, the ammonia will knock you over. And when your done clean, clean, clean it again. To get all ammonia off.
Also, shine a bright light at 30% or so angle to the bore, look at the rifling. You should be able to see copper or no. Looking down the bore always looks shiny to my old eyes.
Hope that helps.