The Captain's Journal » Do Not Ever Shoot A Handgun This Way

11 Nov 2014

Do Not Ever Shoot A Handgun This Way

BY Herschel Smith

9 years, 5 months ago

From Wikimedia Commons:

Standing sideways, saucer and cup style. What on earth are they teaching Navy recruits?

Guns Tags: Handgun Tactics —

Comments

On November 12, 2014 at 5:41 am, Andrew E. said:

Well, according to a buddy of mine who fairly recently was Navy junior enlisted (think he finished his hitch as a PO3), they mostly aren’t. He mentioned that’s especially true for small-arms.
On November 12, 2014 at 12:31 pm, USMC69 said:

Why not if he can hit what he’s pointing at? Since I don’t know how good he is with that pistol in that stance, I am not going to say how he should stand. I’m reminded of a karate instructor I knew. Judges didn’t like his style of side kicks and kept denying him is point; they claimed there was “no power” in his kick. After having enough of thier BS, he kicked his opponent over the top rope around the ring.
On November 12, 2014 at 12:52 pm, Archer said:

You make a good point. Body kinesthesiology (or kinesiology) varies greatly on the individual’s body, and if he has a good sight picture and his stance can absorb the recoil of the pistol and bring it back on target quickly, this stance/grip may work for him.

That said, I’d have to see it to believe it. With the teacup grip and flared out elbow on his support arm, the bent elbow on his shooting arm, and the hunched and sideways-turned shoulders – which breaks the support structure of his shoulders, core, hips, and legs – I’d assume his sight picture is fine, but his body is not set up to absorb recoil, even from a 9mm. The first shot will be OK, but after that, who knows?
On November 12, 2014 at 2:35 pm, Herschel Smith said:

If he hits what he’s shooting at, it will be in spite of, rather than because of, his tactics. Tactics and technique are supposed to be a help, not a hindrance. His technique is good for the movies, not anything else. He has no control over lateral motion of the weapon, he has a gigantic blind side behind him, his stance has limited his range of motion, he has no ability to absorb recoil and regain his sight picture, oh, you add to the list. It’s long.
On November 12, 2014 at 10:50 pm, Miles said:

Herschel, I can’t disagree with your critique, but you do need to remember one thing: The pistol in the standard, operational, military establishment is the absolutely last, least weapon considered for use.
The most official, standard operational, military training I ever received (because it was required to take it before qualifying) was on a computerized Engagement Skills Trainer range with air powered mock-ups. And this was because if you transport Arms, Ammunition & Explosives, you do it armed.
The instructor looked as bored as I already was.
On the range, they didn’t care what level you qualified at. You met the minimum standard, you were done and told to report back to work.
Even the accuracy standard to achieve Expert qualification is ludicrously easy. And by that I mean that if you can’t qualify expert with a pistol to the military standard, you should seriously think of never owning one until you can, and then use that ‘skill set’ as a bare bones starting point.
Bottom line: Uncle doesn’t really give a damn about pistol skills outside of each force’s National Match Marksmanship Units, or those ‘special’ guys whose mission can best be described as Failure is not an Option.
On November 12, 2014 at 11:46 pm, Herschel Smith said:

But Miles, officers carry sidearms, SAW gunners carry side arms, all NCOs carry side arms, all special forces operators carry them on every deployment and every mission (and use them extensively), and we carry them throughout the day. It’s likely that the first and last shot you will ever fire in self defense will be from a handgun.
On November 13, 2014 at 1:42 am, Miles said:

Yes, you’re mostly correct (Pertaining to “Big Army”, can’t say about the other services; Not all, in fact not most, NCOs pack a pistol, and quite a number of Officers don’t either, but I digress). The overall syllabus is one of barely sufficient capability. But, Uncle cares not one itty bit what you or I think about it.
It would be nice to have every SM go through rifle and pistol training and get to the point of being basically equivalent to a “B” level IPSC shooter, but outside of the units subordinate to USSOCOM, Uncle is just not going to spend the money for it.
Used to be quite the deal for SMs to get to the point where they were considered sufficiently trained to carry – ask my dad who trained Naval occifers during WW2 and the Korean war.
Me? The old man taught me to shoot a 1911 years before I went on Active Duty oh so many decades ago. I was glad.
So, since Uncle isn’t going to do anything about it, all I can suggest for the parents of SMs who might be in a position to pack a pistola is to give them a present of a class or two at one of the pistol shooting schools and convince them to use their leave time to take the course, unless they can talk their commanders into letting them have some permissive TDY.
And you are right, outside of my house, it’s almost a certainty that the first shot I’ll fire in self defense will be from a handgun. Maybe the last as well, but not if I get to the rifle in my vehicle!
On November 14, 2014 at 10:17 am, Ned Weatherby said:

Added to the limiting sight – one eye closed.
On November 19, 2014 at 1:07 pm, USMC69 said:

You know the saying “I’d rather be lucky every time than good”? It’s easy to make claims, but the proof is always in the outcome. If it works for you, don’t fix it.
On November 19, 2014 at 2:17 pm, Herschel Smith said:

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. It’s like mowing grass in flip flops. Some things are just objectively wrong, even if you’ve never suffered the consequences from them.
On November 13, 2014 at 3:31 am, Mark Dietzler said:

The Navy qualifies people with handguns so they can carry them on the job. Fleet sailors like this guy only shoot for score if they are in security or on VBSS teams. Everyone else doesn’t get to touch the small arms on the ship. For such a large an “armed” force, Naval personnel are largely unarmed on ships, even in a “combat zone” like the Persian Gulf.
I can confirm that small arms training is horrible outside of NSW. Out of date, and largely ineffective in preparing people for real world incidents. The Navy gets by because nobody is shooting at them. Most of the time, anyway.
Judging by where that guy is standing, that is just a famfire or the ship is just getting rid of rounds by letting people shoot; he’s shooting off the side of the flight deck of one of the New Orleans class LPDs. There is no room in front of him for a target, and he’s not wearing a web belt for reloads, which are part of the standard Navy pistol qual.
On November 13, 2014 at 2:04 pm, Lina Inverse said:

Awhile ago, within the last 10-15 years, I read that at the Great Lakes boot camp, sailors “fire” something less than 25 rounds, most of which are simulated, less than 10 rounds are real.

Per Wikipedia:

Week Four mostly consists of weapons training. Recruits are familiarized with the M9 pistol, and the Mossberg 500 shotgun. Sometime during the week recruits receive a classroom lecture on firearm safety and operation of the M9, and the Mossberg 500. Later, recruits receive live fire training with each firearm.

After several years, the training of the M16 rifle by U.S. Navy recruits has ceased. Any training on the M16 is done outside RTC Great Lakes.

Back in my father’s time in the ’50s, they used M1 Garands; I can’t find it with a quick search, but I have a vague memory that the real firing range got shut down for the usual environmental reasons.
On November 13, 2014 at 5:38 pm, Mark Crist said:

I’m an Army guy and likely don’t know for sure, but he appears to be aiming off the side of a ship. So what exactly is he shooting AT? Considering height above water, speed of ship, etc., is it even realistic to expect him to hit? Or is he just shooting so it shows up on the training records?
This happens in the Army too. The Army has some excellent marksmanship training simulators, but all too often, it turns into people just treating it like a video game resulting in zero training value.
On November 13, 2014 at 5:44 pm, TEEBONICUS said:

Agreed. The modified Weaver rules, because it mimics perfectly the same body mechanics as shooting a rifle.
On November 13, 2014 at 6:01 pm, Herschel Smith said:

My oldest son Josh shoots modified weaver and does well. I don’t. I square up. That works better for me. But this shooter isn’t in modified Weaver. He is completely sideways. Not only does he look goofy, it is in fact a goofy stance.

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