Comments on: Should the Marines Have Special Operations Forces?

By: Herschel Smith

Herschel Smith — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:49:01 +0000

Thanks. To follow up your point on W. Thomas Smith, I used his article as a sort of launching pad to address my other points on MARSOC. It might have been better, in hindsight, to address these two issues separately.

By: jonesgp1996

jonesgp1996 — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:24:55 +0000

I did read the whole article, and I get your points about the role of the Marines. What I wanted to point out was the wrong-headedness about “inter-service rivalry” that sometimes pops up in the general discourse. It just happend that the first time I saw the Smith bit was here in the “CJ” (which I come to regularly). It was W. Thomas Smith’s statement (and misinformed opinion) and the language used in the article quoted at the top of the entry that I believed needed redress, and the Captain’s blog provided the forum to do so – I appreciate having the opportunity.

I see the point about Marine SOF working in support of Marines and not being sent off to do other missions that do not fulfill that role. The Marines are already a microcosm of jointness with the MEUs, MAGTFs, etc. However, the policy direction in DoD is such that being joint in the larger sense is the way things are going, which is perhaps to the detriment of the Marines’ concept of how they operate (as you argue). Unfortunately for the USMC, it would be heretical for them to say that they don’t want to operate jointly, whether in the conventional or the SOF realm, and so they have to go with the flow.

By: Herschel Smith

Herschel Smith — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:08:12 +0000

I think that this might point to what Breakerjump mentioned (and I think he was referring to the comment left by Shadowspear.com). You should go back and read the article again.

It has nothing to do with interservice rivalry. It has to do with the organizational structure and makeup and mission of the Marines. The Commandant has recently discussed the Marines being too “heavy,” and the need to return to a rapid deployment, self sufficient, rapid strike force.

Now, it may never again be the case that the Marines storm beaches while under live fire. I don’t know. They also should retain the COIN perspective, being so good at it as they have demonstrated.

But the point, again, has nothing to do with any interservice rivalry. The Marines are formed around an MEU concept, and special forces gets in the way unless it is in support of this idea.

As for paying off the locals, I would expect nothing less:

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/07/18/iraq-land-of-lies-and-deceipt/

Finally, I am sure the Marines aren’t worried about relevance, being that they just won the Anbar Province and are showing how to do the same thing in the Helmand Province. As to whether they report to higher command in another branch of the service, this is again beside the point and thus irrelevant.

As for share of the budget … well, there you might be on to something. This has been their struggle ever since formation of the Corps.

By: jonesgp1996

jonesgp1996 — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:30:33 +0000

I think that one part of the Smith quotation that the Captain cites is misplaced/misinformed, and that is the bit about inter-service rivalry. The special operations command within the over-arching command (in this case, CENTCOM) is a joint entity, so it is not inconceivable that there is an Army general who is somewhere in the chain of command of the Marines in question. In the muddled COIN environment, it was probably the best damage-control option available, and an Army general was the guy who was in command to do it. (As an aside, the news blurb’s use of the word “expelled” certainly serves to create the impression that the unit’s departure may have been motivated by inter-service rivalry; the journalist who wrote it & his editor ought to check their language next time.)

I’m not sure if it stings Smith that Army officers came through the area after the Marines and paid off the locals, whether they had been hurt by the incident or not. However, in the COIN environment, the cost of making good your “debt” is negligible compared to what it would be if you didn’t.

As for Marine special operations, I think one could make the argument both ways. Given the current US military push toward “jointness,” I think it’s an inescapable reality for the USMC that they may be forced to look more like the other services, if only to maintain their relevance (as perceived by others) and their budgetary support.

By: trollsmasher

trollsmasher — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:21:43 +0000

Breakerjump please explain?

By: Breakerjump

Breakerjump — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:18:14 +0000

Sometimes I really do wonder wether or not people actually read the post before commenting. But then I stop caring.

By: ShadowSpear.com

ShadowSpear.com — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:21:58 +0000

One of the great thigns about MARSOC is that is has created an effective Special Operations Force as directed by USSOCOM. The Marine Special Operations Advisor Groups, or MSOAG, has stepped up in terms of the FID mission that US Army Special Forces are currently overwhelmed in throughout the world. They are taking up the slack and are very much appreciated. The MSOBs also serve a purpose. The establishment of MARSOC was not just so that the Marine Corps could have an SOF presence, in fact they already had (Force Recon, Recon Battalion, Det 1). MARSOC serves an important function, just as the other SOF units do. Given the circumstances, all the Marines involved with the instance overseas were cleared. If that had not been the case, would it matter? Every unit has its bad apples, who eventually get weeded out in some way or another.

By: trollsmasher

trollsmasher — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 03:24:02 +0000

OK here is my two cents from the minute that I stepped into the yellow footprints we were told that we were special or course lower than whale crap but special. I think MARSOC was an opportunity for the Corps to get a presence in SOCOM which they had previously declined. When you are in SOCOM you get more money different gizmos what have you.
I think the training afford to the Marines that go to MARSOC will be put to good use once they go back out to the fleet but do I think that we should have it I am not yet sold.