Comments on: Body Armor Wars: The Way Forward http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/ News & Commentary on Warfare, Policy and Counterterrorism Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:07:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: DBurn http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19273 DBurn Wed, 30 May 2007 13:14:55 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19273 I watched the 55 Minute rebuttal by General Brown of the NBC reports and I wondered why he needed 55 minutes. If the Dragon Skin suffered 13 penetrations, why not just hold up the fragments or the "holed" plates that Dragon Skin uses? Why the Dog and Pony show? He did hold up the armor plates to show the weakness if they are not overlapping, so it was not from lack of access. If the situations were reversed, I have no doubt that ESapi plates would be help up with the penetrations rather than the vest itself. That would have put a significant amount of doubt to rest. Digital X-Rays can easily be altered as can video. If you have the data back up to the penetrated armor, that's far more difficult to penetrate- ( Of course they could always drill a hole in with a super hardened bit and then put some make up on it). I just am flummoxed why with 13 claimed penetrations they didn't display what was left of the armor disks? I watched the 55 Minute rebuttal by General Brown of the NBC reports and I wondered why he needed 55 minutes. If the Dragon Skin suffered 13 penetrations, why not just hold up the fragments or the “holed” plates that Dragon Skin uses? Why the Dog and Pony show?

He did hold up the armor plates to show the weakness if they are not overlapping, so it was not from lack of access. If the situations were reversed, I have no doubt that ESapi plates would be help up with the penetrations rather than the vest itself.

That would have put a significant amount of doubt to rest. Digital X-Rays can easily be altered as can video. If you have the data back up to the penetrated armor, that’s far more difficult to penetrate- ( Of course they could always drill a hole in with a super hardened bit and then put some make up on it). I just am flummoxed why with 13 claimed penetrations they didn’t display what was left of the armor disks?

]]> By: Blogs of War » Need to Know - 05/29/2008 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19238 Blogs of War » Need to Know - 05/29/2008 Tue, 29 May 2007 18:20:47 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19238 [...] The Captain’s Journal There have been recent calls from members of the Senate for investigations into claims that Pinnacle’s Dragon Skin armor is better than the currently deployed body armor. Response from the Army was swift and direct. This article covers some recent history of body armor and the current “dust-upâ€? in the media and Senate, and briefly examines claims and counter-claims. A way forward is recommended for final disposition of the issues surrounding body armor. [...] […] The Captain’s Journal There have been recent calls from members of the Senate for investigations into claims that Pinnacle’s Dragon Skin armor is better than the currently deployed body armor. Response from the Army was swift and direct. This article covers some recent history of body armor and the current “dust-upâ€? in the media and Senate, and briefly examines claims and counter-claims. A way forward is recommended for final disposition of the issues surrounding body armor. […]

]]> By: Blogs of War http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19237 Blogs of War Tue, 29 May 2007 18:20:06 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19237 <strong>Need to Know - 05/29/2008...</strong> Need to Know is a short roundup of key blog posts that should not be missed on your cruise through the blogosphere. The number of links in the roundup may vary but if you find it here you can trust that it’s must-read material. The Captain’... Need to Know - 05/29/2008…

Need to Know is a short roundup of key blog posts that should not be missed on your cruise through the blogosphere. The number of links in the roundup may vary but if you find it here you can trust that it’s must-read material.
The Captain’…

]]> By: mechanical engineering » Blog Archive » Computational modeling for fluid flow and interfacial transport http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19233 mechanical engineering » Blog Archive » Computational modeling for fluid flow and interfacial transport Tue, 29 May 2007 17:09:06 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19233 [...] Congress should specifically make the funds available (and the DoD should allocate them and support to the extent necessary) the hiring of a completely independent forensic and mechanical engineering consulting firm. … …more [...] […] Congress should specifically make the funds available (and the DoD should allocate them and support to the extent necessary) the hiring of a completely independent forensic and mechanical engineering consulting firm. … …more […]

]]> By: BLACKFIVE http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19230 BLACKFIVE Tue, 29 May 2007 15:36:27 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19230 <strong>The Body Armor Wars - Dragon Skin VS. Interceptor Body Armor...</strong> The fight over body armor approved by the DoA and the DoD continues to heat up. It's been ugly, but appears to be getting uglier. Here is where it sort of began in the Internets. Dragon Skin versus IBA. Slab... The Body Armor Wars - Dragon Skin VS. Interceptor Body Armor…

The fight over body armor approved by the DoA and the DoD continues to heat up. It’s been ugly, but appears to be getting uglier. Here is where it sort of began in the Internets. Dragon Skin versus IBA. Slab…

]]> By: ajacksonian http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19220 ajacksonian Tue, 29 May 2007 11:38:42 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/05/28/body-armor-wars-the-way-forward/#comment-19220 One of the major complaints that I have seen from the field is the actual weight and encumberance of the current system and its lack of flexibility, both for body motion and protection. Full pack weight is a high determiner as well as the combat load weight. Weight is primary, but flexibility, and being able to manuever on the ground with gear is also an ergonomic factor for long-term use and wear on the body of equipment. Additionally, in extreme temperature conditions heat retention or lack of same, will influence total amount of supplies to be packed into the field. A system that meets specified weight, but requires 20% more water is not a weight savings nor a good idea for field supply and logistics. Any system that can integrate cooling/heating, distribute load, and reduce overall need for fluids even at an incrementally higher weight may actually reduce overall pack encumberance. As the various ground forces move towards a systems integration concept, body armor must now be *more* than just a layer of protection: it must be easy to wear, integrate with the system and adjust to the end user while still offering protection and other advantages. With increasing understanding of the materials sciences in cloth, ceramics and such things as nanotechnology and materials that react differently to different stress types there will always be a competition between weight, flexibility, protection capability and system integration. Perhaps if overall tests were designed towards systemic advantages along with protection, we might get a fairer review of the equipment involved. Perhaps the Mountain Warfare training groups would be a prime set of candidates to do year 'round on the ground testing of different system outlooks as they have to go from desert to arctic, low to high altitude and also do fun things like scaling cliffs and mountaineering in their gear. Let those who actually can put the stuff through a rigorous set of tests have a say in its critique and pluses/minuses so that the gear *starts* with end-user approval. Instead of seeing *that* as an add-on. One of the major complaints that I have seen from the field is the actual weight and encumberance of the current system and its lack of flexibility, both for body motion and protection. Full pack weight is a high determiner as well as the combat load weight. Weight is primary, but flexibility, and being able to manuever on the ground with gear is also an ergonomic factor for long-term use and wear on the body of equipment. Additionally, in extreme temperature conditions heat retention or lack of same, will influence total amount of supplies to be packed into the field. A system that meets specified weight, but requires 20% more water is not a weight savings nor a good idea for field supply and logistics. Any system that can integrate cooling/heating, distribute load, and reduce overall need for fluids even at an incrementally higher weight may actually reduce overall pack encumberance.

As the various ground forces move towards a systems integration concept, body armor must now be *more* than just a layer of protection: it must be easy to wear, integrate with the system and adjust to the end user while still offering protection and other advantages. With increasing understanding of the materials sciences in cloth, ceramics and such things as nanotechnology and materials that react differently to different stress types there will always be a competition between weight, flexibility, protection capability and system integration.

Perhaps if overall tests were designed towards systemic advantages along with protection, we might get a fairer review of the equipment involved. Perhaps the Mountain Warfare training groups would be a prime set of candidates to do year ’round on the ground testing of different system outlooks as they have to go from desert to arctic, low to high altitude and also do fun things like scaling cliffs and mountaineering in their gear. Let those who actually can put the stuff through a rigorous set of tests have a say in its critique and pluses/minuses so that the gear *starts* with end-user approval. Instead of seeing *that* as an add-on.

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