Comments on: Haditha Events Coming to a Head http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/ News & Commentary on Warfare, Policy and Counterterrorism Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:25:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: The Captain’s Journal » Understanding the Events of Haditha http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-19617 The Captain’s Journal » Understanding the Events of Haditha Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:40:18 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-19617 [...] On that fateful day in Haditha, the Marines were engaging in room clearing tactics.  It isn’t any more complicated than that.  It was an approved method of battling insurgents, it was ordered, and given that fire was coming from the location of the rooms that were cleared, it was justified.  As we observed in Haditha Events Coming to a Head: The one who led the stack into the room that day had previously been engaged in the battle for Fallujah.  The protocol was to toss in a fragmentation grenade, and follow with a stack of four Marines (a “fire teamâ€?), one whose billet it is to carry the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon).  This day, the SAW gunner happened to be the one experienced from Fallujah, and who led the stack. [...] [...] On that fateful day in Haditha, the Marines were engaging in room clearing tactics.  It isn’t any more complicated than that.  It was an approved method of battling insurgents, it was ordered, and given that fire was coming from the location of the rooms that were cleared, it was justified.  As we observed in Haditha Events Coming to a Head: The one who led the stack into the room that day had previously been engaged in the battle for Fallujah.  The protocol was to toss in a fragmentation grenade, and follow with a stack of four Marines (a “fire teamâ€?), one whose billet it is to carry the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon).  This day, the SAW gunner happened to be the one experienced from Fallujah, and who led the stack. [...]

]]> By: Bear Creek Ledger » Haditha Marines http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4821 Bear Creek Ledger » Haditha Marines Fri, 22 Dec 2006 23:17:31 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4821 [...] Captain’s Journal has a posting on Room Clearing tactics which is what these Marines were doing.  [...] [...] Captain’s Journal has a posting on Room Clearing tactics which is what these Marines were doing.  [...]

]]> By: Robert J Weimann II http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4808 Robert J Weimann II Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:16:55 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4808 I can't help but think that the Marine Corps is stacking the deck against these Marines. What is "unpremeditated" murder?? It is not even listed in the UCMJ. There is murder and there is manslaughter. If you take away proofs of evidence of a charge, it makes the case for the prosecution easier. Murder requires premeditation. The elements of proof for murder are:(1) has a premeditated design to kill; (2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm; (3) is engaged in an act that is inherently dangerous to another and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or (4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson. I guess unpredemitated murder leaves the prosecution with only number 2 and 3; intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and engaged in an act that is inherently dangerous to another and evinces a wanton disregard of human life. Sounds like combat to me and is real similiar to "close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver". Bob Weimann Former Commanding Officer Kilo Company 3/1 (1981-1983) I can’t help but think that the Marine Corps is stacking the deck against these Marines. What is “unpremeditated” murder?? It is not even listed in the UCMJ. There is murder and there is manslaughter. If you take away proofs of evidence of a charge, it makes the case for the prosecution easier. Murder requires premeditation. The elements of proof for murder are:(1) has a premeditated design to kill; (2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm; (3) is engaged in an act that is inherently dangerous to another and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or
(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson. I guess unpredemitated murder leaves the prosecution with only number 2 and 3; intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and engaged in an act that is inherently dangerous to another and evinces a wanton disregard of human life. Sounds like combat to me and is real similiar to “close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver”.
Bob Weimann
Former Commanding Officer
Kilo Company 3/1 (1981-1983)

]]> By: Blogs of War » The Haditha 8 Face Murder and Dereliction of Duty Charges http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4799 Blogs of War » The Haditha 8 Face Murder and Dereliction of Duty Charges Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:27:33 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4799 [...] Herschel Smith, working with what little we know about this case, examines the possible tactics used by the Marines who had just lost a fellow soldier to a roadside bomb: The full story must come out, including the testimony of the Marines involved that day. What we believe we know based on the reports is that room clearing operations were conducted that day directed at rooms from which enemy fire came. The last paragraphs of the CNN story are important, and this will form the crux of the defense. [...] [...] Herschel Smith, working with what little we know about this case, examines the possible tactics used by the Marines who had just lost a fellow soldier to a roadside bomb: The full story must come out, including the testimony of the Marines involved that day. What we believe we know based on the reports is that room clearing operations were conducted that day directed at rooms from which enemy fire came. The last paragraphs of the CNN story are important, and this will form the crux of the defense. [...]

]]> By: Riehl World View http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4789 Riehl World View Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:54:15 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4789 <strong>Haditha Charges...</strong> SAN DIEGO, California (AP) — As many as eight Marines could be charged in the biggest U.S. criminal case to emerge from the war in Iraq in terms of Iraqis killed. Camp Pendleton officials scheduled a briefing Thursday to announce... Haditha Charges…

SAN DIEGO, California (AP) — As many as eight Marines could be charged in the biggest U.S. criminal case to emerge from the war in Iraq in terms of Iraqis killed. Camp Pendleton officials scheduled a briefing Thursday to announce…

]]> By: Cop The Truth http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4785 Cop The Truth Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:24:45 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4785 <strong>Haditha Marines face charges...</strong> My buddy Herschel at The Captain’s Journal has been following this incident from the very beginning and has a new post up with some great analysis. Go give it a read. I don't know what happened that day in Iraq,... Haditha Marines face charges…

My buddy Herschel at The Captain’s Journal has been following this incident from the very beginning and has a new post up with some great analysis. Go give it a read. I don’t know what happened that day in Iraq,…

]]> By: Breakerjump http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4766 Breakerjump Thu, 21 Dec 2006 23:33:47 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4766 This is what happens when you put a bunch of Marines into a hostile area filled with combatants and non-combatants alike and they start taking fire. This war is wrong from the start. It is shameful to place US Marines in urban areas and ask them to function as a domestic SWAT team. It's like trying to carve a smoking pipe with a chainsaw. What outcome does the Administration expect? This is what happens when you put a bunch of Marines into a hostile area filled with combatants and non-combatants alike and they start taking fire.

This war is wrong from the start. It is shameful to place US Marines in urban areas and ask them to function as a domestic SWAT team.

It’s like trying to carve a smoking pipe with a chainsaw. What outcome does the Administration expect?

]]> By: dw http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4765 dw Thu, 21 Dec 2006 23:25:00 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4765 In a real war, the Marines would dispose of any potential threat, and that would be the end of that. If three houses exist as a threat, the threat would be ended as quickly as possible. We've come to imagine war as something other than a confrontation we must win. And so, we lose, but it doesn't matter. The real tragedy would come when we need to fight a real war, but find ourselves in this losing mindset. What has gone wrong here (apparently) is that the Marines in question forgot they weren't fighting a real war. They went after the enemy with the intent to kill the enemy as priority one, and are now charged with murder. A travesty. There do exist situations when a soldier should be charged with murder of a civilian. The classic rape/murder crime is no less despicable, and deserves to be treated the same as at home. In a real war, the Marines would dispose of any potential threat, and that would be the end of that. If three houses exist as a threat, the threat would be ended as quickly as possible.

We’ve come to imagine war as something other than a confrontation we must win. And so, we lose, but it doesn’t matter.

The real tragedy would come when we need to fight a real war, but find ourselves in this losing mindset.

What has gone wrong here (apparently) is that the Marines in question forgot they weren’t fighting a real war. They went after the enemy with the intent to kill the enemy as priority one, and are now charged with murder. A travesty.

There do exist situations when a soldier should be charged with murder of a civilian. The classic rape/murder crime is no less despicable, and deserves to be treated the same as at home.

]]> By: Steve http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4764 Steve Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:06:58 +0000 http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/12/21/haditha-events-coming-to-a-head/#comment-4764 As a former Marine from the '70's, I thought these killings were unnecessary when I first heard about them and they seem even less legitimate now. For all that, I wouldn't recommend putting these guys in the brig from a long time. I would simply admin them out. The problem then is, having charged "murder" (and there must have been a legitimate reason for the Corps to charge their own people with that), anything less than a long sentence will be a PR disaster in Iraq and even in many other places. I repeat, my inclination is to admin these guys out of the Corps. As to room clearing operations, in populated areas that have not been specified as hostile, you simply cannot repeat these kinds of operations over and over and not have second thoughts. The story is that the E-6 in charge of this op not only shot the guys in the cab (very understandable), but also broke into three separate residences (progressively less understandable). All in all, not a good day for the Corps, and I do not accept that the Marines have any kind of "obligation" to engage in this kind of conduct. As a former Marine from the ’70’s, I thought these killings were unnecessary when I first heard about them and they seem even less legitimate now.

For all that, I wouldn’t recommend putting these guys in the brig from a long time. I would simply admin them out. The problem then is, having charged “murder” (and there must have been a legitimate reason for the Corps to charge their own people with that), anything less than a long sentence will be a PR disaster in Iraq and even in many other places.

I repeat, my inclination is to admin these guys out of the Corps. As to room clearing operations, in populated areas that have not been specified as hostile, you simply cannot repeat these kinds of operations over and over and not have second thoughts. The story is that the E-6 in charge of this op not only shot the guys in the cab (very understandable), but also broke into three separate residences (progressively less understandable). All in all, not a good day for the Corps, and I do not accept that the Marines have any kind of “obligation” to engage in this kind of conduct.

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